'Civilian casualties' ruin stats when they NOT yours!

Commie · Post by **Commie** » Jun 08 2005

It's a LOW PRIORITY request as it doesn't really affect the gameplay, but maybe eventually it could be possible to implement the counting of civilian casualties based on permanent or original ownership of the cities?

As Belarus I invaded Ukraine and after a time I took Kiev. Then immediately as we fought over the city, I saw my civilian casualties rise astronomically. At the end of the game, despite a well planned and fought campaign where military casualties were low, I had over 600,000 civilian casualties making me look like an incompetent bungler when all of them were Ukrainian citizens that became casualties as we fought over their towns! It's silly and unrealistic to attribute them to the conquering nation, as in any war, just because one side takes another countries cities and then people in those cities died while the occupier defended them, then the casualties are counted on the original owners side and not the occupier.
Perhaps just give a city a 'tag' to show original ownership and so any deaths there get filled on the owners side. Only after annexing due to elimination should the 'tags' change to the new owner. Maybe this is all a bit complicated, but as I said, it's a low priority request!

Post by **Balthagor** » Jun 08 2005

I actually disagree with this. If you chose to fight in civilian areas then you should have consequences. In many cases I'll surround cities and chose my attack to do the least damage to the city because I want the population. I think that kind of strategic thinking should be rewarded.

But, I'm open for more discussion...

Xetal · Post by **Xetal** » Jun 08 2005

I think what he means is that if you capture a city and then it gets bombarded that the civilian casualties count as your own, even though they've been 'civilians' to your country for mere hours, and only because you crushed them into submission...

3iff · Post by **3iff** » Jun 09 2005

Now, if loyalty was operating, civilian casualties could be associated with the country whose loyalty was greatest...

So the freshly captured city would be mostly loyal to the original owners and losses could be credited to their population.

Once loyalty to you passes 50% (or some agreed total) then losses to that city would be considered your population...

Of course, we need loyalty to be implemented first (I'm not rushing you BG, honestly).

Commie · Post by **Commie** » Jun 09 2005

No, that makes no sense...by that token, Soviet civillian losses incurred in Stalingrad during the fighting in areas occupied by the Germans should be counted as 'German casualties' and Belgian civillians killed in Bastogne should be counted as 'US casualties' as the US held that town during the Bulge.

I'm not complaining about civillian casualties when my own nation is being bombed, but only when you are in the course of invading someone else and are fighting a fluid battle over a town. Only when you finally defeat the player and 'annex' the region, then ONLY then should the citizens of that region count as your own in any future casualties. Such is the case after WW2 when Poles didn't count the German dead in the regions they gained from Germany as their own, but if people subsequently were killed in those regions then they belonged to Poland.

3iff · Post by **3iff** » Jun 09 2005

Did I misword what I meant...perhaps I did...

Now, if loyalty was operating, civilian casualties in that specific city could be associated with the country whose loyalty was greatest in that city...

So the Germans attack Stalingrad. Civilians killed there are Russian casualties. Say the Germans capture the city, the civilians remain loyal to Russia and are still counted as Russian casualties in any counter-attack.

Say also that Germany wins the city and drives on eastward...gradually, loyalty would change (as the Russians are shipped off and replaced??) and the city population becomes loyal to Germany. This takes time, perhaps 6-12 months or more??

The Russians then turn the tide and recapture Stalingrad. Casualties now are considered German...

I am agreeing with your stance commie...I'm just suggesting that the switch need not take place after the original country is defeated...

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » Jun 09 2005

They should just make it so cities ownership doesnt change til the region does.

So, if i am germany and i invade france, the ownership of the french cities should remain with france til france is defeated totally.

When france as a region ceases to be, than a new ownership for its cities should be decided.

You would still get to use the citeies for production ect..,but its citezens would not yet be considered yours.Unless ya drafted them and stuck them in a unit

Simply make a difference between occupied and owned .

Post by **Balthagor** » Jun 09 2005

Commie wrote:No, that makes no sense...by that token, Soviet civillian losses incurred in Stalingrad during the fighting in areas occupied by the Germans should be counted as 'German casualties' and Belgian civillians killed in Bastogne should be counted as 'US casualties' as the US held that town during the Bulge.

Actually, I think it does make sense;

Stalingrad; It is under German administration. The Germans have now made themselves responsible for the population of the city. If civilians are killed while they try and hold onto a city they took by force, why should they not suffer the penalty?

Bastogne; Actually, since the US where allies with the Belgians (my Dad's home country

) the game model would have it that when they retook the city the ownership would be made Belgian. The game model says that when capturing territory, if it is loyal to an ally, it is given to the ally. In this case casualties would be Belgian.

The loyalty ideas aren't bad, but as mentioned, I like it as it works now. Only difference I would see if loyalty was expanded is that ownership might shift when recapturing if the territory loyalty had changed for cases like the Bastogne example.

Commie · Post by **Commie** » Jun 10 2005

Because the simple fact is that Soviet civillian casualties ARE NOT counted as German civillian casualties! If that were so then why does every history book have German civillian casualties as 3 million instead of the 20 million that it should be if what you say is correct?

This is true with Soviet statistics, as why do they mention up to 20 million civillian dead when most died under German occupation?

Also let me give you another example: Poland is regarded as having suffered almost million civillian casualties. Why are they counted as Polish casualties when almost all were inflicted while Germany administered this area?

They too should be counted as German casualties at the end of the war so by SR2010 type of counting in WW2 Germany would have lost 35 million or so, Poland 300,000, and Soviet Union maybe 4 million.

I have no problem of the casualties being yours AFTER the particular player is eliminated. Because then, that part is totally your realm. But in every war that had some records kept, during a conflict, the ORIGINAL owners of a place at the start of hostilities have casualties counted towards the starting owner and not to the occupier. Look at the 30 Years' War where ownership of provinces changed time and again. When Gustavis Adolphus rampaged through Germany the massive civillian casualties weren't counted as Swedish dead, but German.

Post by **Balthagor** » Jun 10 2005

I see your arguement, but for a wargame like this I still feel it is the more accurate solution. While it may not be how things have been done in the real world, I think it's fine for the game. I'll mention it around and see what reactions it gets from the others.

Commie · Post by **Commie** » Jun 11 2005

Thanks, I do understand the game using this as really, the people that die in the region are your losses long-term I guess, so any bloodbath on one scenario may impact on the population in another. But at the moment it's like being penalised for invading and fighting over a city before its final status is decided. In Falluja, the US troops that withdrew in April 2004,well it was in game terms a US captured city, and in game the civillian casualties would be counted as US not Iraqi as US was the last force in 'ownership'. You can see how it seems weird.

Thanks again for considering it at least, like I said at beginning it's just a low priority ask, so no hurry!

defcon · Post by **defcon** » Jun 23 2005

I see both arguments but I believe if your Germany and invade Poland then Poland fights back to regain lost territory and inflicts casualties to their own people its of course counted as German civilian casualties. Yet they aren't German, their Polish.

So rather than having it by who controls the territory have it by what nationality the civilians are.

So lets say Germany conquers Poland and later in the scenario Austria attacks the German controlled Polish territory. The civilian casualties then could still be considered "Polish civilian casualties" rather than German. This makes sense also because with the engine now the conquered lands are always loyal to their original owners.

Decimatus · Post by **Decimatus** » Jun 23 2005

I think this should be tied in with loyalty when that is fixed. If you take Stalingrad, and a million civilians die while you retreat, those aren't german casualties, those are russian.

Perhaps the casualties could be split up between the loyalty levels. If 80% are loyal to Russia, and 20% loyal to Europe, then russia takes 80% of the casualty figures. If Europe holds stalingrad for 6 months before loosing it, in which time the loyalty goes to 50% each side, then each side takes 50% of the casualties when the numbers are tallied. Of course, 6 months is a bit too short for much loyalty change I think, it would be adequate for the game.

yakaspat · Post by **yakaspat** » Jun 27 2005

Maybe I'm dense, but, how do you check your civilian casualties?

Decimatus · Post by **Decimatus** » Jun 27 2005

Open diplomacy tab, click the bar graph looking button, then click the arrows on the popup window to switch between stats.