Gibraltar

[swedewolf]

Shouldnt it hinder Italians to enter the Atlantic ocean? Or at least severely damage any attempt to pass. In my games I seeing Italian navy and embarked troops around UK. Can they have sailed all around Africa?

[Hullu Hevonen]

Maybe place there some British units?

[Balthagor]

Was it historically a choke point? Are there common "alternate histories" where it should be?

We can't code for every minor detail but appreciate the community bringing our attention to the little details that have big impact...

[Hullu Hevonen]

Gibraltar along with Malta was vital for the allies, the allies could disrupt and supply their troops via Malta. Gibraltar was basically a fortress, with the purpose of helping maintain the supply-lines and work as a choke point. As for historical military assets that where stationed there, there was the No. 202 Squadron of RAF, plus at-least a garrison force capable of defending against naval surface assaults.

This in game terms, axis Merchant marine cant pass Gibraltar and invade UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_ ... rld_War_II

[swedewolf]

Gibraltar was a natural choke point because of the narrow strait and the strong torrent between the Atlantic and western Med. And toghether with the fort and mines, it was a formidable obstacle as depicted in the film Das Boot, for an example. So Gibraltar is a very important place as it hindered the the axis from leaving the Mediterrainan sea. Otherwise the German fleet could have been reinforced against the dominant UK fleet and not to mention the catastrophic result if Italy could harass the vital supply line around africa both cncerning supply to the troops and food and resources to a beligured UK. If this happend in real life the UK was surely doomed as it was close call just counting the German commersraiding alone.
So yes Gibraltar is a very important part of a WW2 game.

[Aragos]

Agreed. Gibraltar effectively closed the Med with the exception of the rare U-Boat that could slip through the extensive anti-sub nets. In addition, there were sea mines, constant aircraft and ship patrols, and fixed guns at Gibraltar that closed the straits to all but Allied and Neutral shipping.

I would add the same for Singapore, Panama Canal and Suez Canal. In general, it is physically impossible to transit a Canal without the owner's permission. Someone has to operate the Lock system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal_locks

Suez: Fortified on both ends, and along the route. It would have been impossible for an Axis ship to transit the Canal.

Panama: Even more fortified than Suez. Numerous batteries of large caliber (14" and greater) shore-based guns protected both ends of the Canal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_during_World_War_II

Singapore: While the guns were generally ineffective to resist the overland Japanese assault, its large coastal guns (14"+) could easily inhibit use of the Straits of Malacca.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Singapore

Game-wise, there should be a setting for the AI: "Unless allied or neutral to the owning country, do not send ships through." Playing the UK, I can wipe out most of Italy's army with a few well-placed ships.

[Zuikaku]

But the problem is if (dumb) naval AI gets slaughtered by Gibraltar garrison. If it keeps sending ships through despite them being damaged or destroyed.

[Aragos]

But the problem is if (dumb) naval AI gets slaughtered by Gibraltar garrison. If it keeps sending ships through despite them being damaged or destroyed.

Yeah, but I'm thinking that if they could add the check into the AI (e.g., "Is Gibraltar neutral or allied?") before ships leave port, that may fix the problem entirely. They literally wouldn't send them through in the first place.

Instead, they'd just try to swarm the docks of London

[Chesehead]

One possible solution would be a generic shore based anti-ship building to simulate shore based heavy artillery or land based torpedoes. Give it a high AS attack value of ~300-500 and make it deploy-able similar to seaports.

Come to think about it, you could split it between land based torpedoes and long range artillery that was mostly static. Give the torpedoes a higher attack value and the guns a longer range.

Effectiveness
Historically, they had mixed success, however the Norwegian shore based torpedo installations were actually somewhat successful, managing to sink a German heavy cruiser during their assault on Oslo. Shore based artillery had mixed effectiveness, largely due to the advent of the Aircraft carrier; however during the pre-war years the US did employ large amounts of 14" and 16" shore defense batteries defending choke points and high value assets. (Major ports/Panama canal)

[swedewolf]

Yeah, the Norwegian was able to sink Blucher with invasion HQ onboard. The Norwegian soldier that succeded to that was court martial by the German and arquebused for it. http://www.admiral-hipper-class.dk/blue ... today.html

"Did you know the fact that Birger Eriksen who sunk the German cruiser "Blücher" 9th April in the Oslo-fjord, was from Lofoten.

When he gave the order to open fire the soldiers said: "Should we really use sharp shells?" "Yes" he replied. "This will either give me the war-medal or give me the court martial.

They fired one shot and hit the hangar for the aeroplane. An enormous fire broke out and after a while this big warship sunk in the Oslo-fjord. About 800 lost their lives this early morning 9.4.40."

http://ww2today.com/norwegian-shore-bat ... he-blucher


To mention another naval fort then Singapore fortification comes to my mind. Formidable in the defence from the sea but had no defences landwards. And it was captured by Japanees land forces.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/fa ... gapore.htm

[vahadar]

One possible solution would be a generic shore based anti-ship building to simulate shore based heavy artillery or land based torpedoes. Give it a high AS attack value of ~300-500 and make it deploy-able similar to seaports.

Come to think about it, you could split it between land based torpedoes and long range artillery that was mostly static. Give the torpedoes a higher attack value and the guns a longer range.

Effectiveness
Historically, they had mixed success, however the Norwegian shore based torpedo installations were actually somewhat successful, managing to sink a German heavy cruiser during their assault on Oslo. Shore based artillery had mixed effectiveness, largely due to the advent of the Aircraft carrier; however during the pre-war years the US did employ large amounts of 14" and 16" shore defense batteries defending choke points and high value assets. (Major ports/Panama canal)

This is a very interesting idea, i'll put that in my current project (for singapore, panama, suez and gibraltar)

edit : was thinking of doing something similar (fixed units) for maginot and siegfried lines

[BattleGoat]

Under review... Not sure how to deal with the Anti Sub nets in our game.

[Aragos]

Under review... Not sure how to deal with the Anti Sub nets in our game.

Hmm. Perhaps you could give an ASW value to Fortifications buildings, to reflect more than just a bunch of bunkers. This would give subs attempting to pass through fortified locations hits.

Just spitballing. Of course, Gib, Singapore, Suez and Panama Canals all currently lack fortifications....

[Fistalis]

Under review... Not sure how to deal with the Anti Sub nets in our game.

Hmm. Perhaps you could give an ASW value to Fortifications buildings, to reflect more than just a bunch of bunkers. This would give subs attempting to pass through fortified locations hits.

Just spitballing. Of course, Gib, Singapore, Suez and Panama Canals all currently lack fortifications....

would prefer to see a separate "coastal fortifications" or something rather than give regular fortifications this value.

Edit: thats not the same thing as an anti sub net though.. IDEALLY.. it would be a water structure that would simply stop subs from moving through a hex. But that sounds like a lot of work for george and he has other stuff to do.

[Ozi]

Under review... Not sure how to deal with the Anti Sub nets in our game.

Close straits for non-owner ships completely. The Brits would have sunk any surface ship trying to push through Gibraltar....