Any improvements to the economy?

[ozmono2005]

I stopped playing and supporting Supreme Ruler games when I learned more about how the economy functions or how they didn't function and I was wondering if the economy has seen any improvements. Most importantly I would like a transparent economic manpower pool of some kind and some other statistics so I can figure it out properly, assuming it works at all. I don't mean to sound rude or to berate SR rather I am asking, again, for something that I find critical in a grand strategy game. I asked for such things first thing the cold war was announced and it fell on deaf ears. I understand all fan (or old fan) request cannot be granted but again I am letting you know in no uncertain terms that it is essential for me in order to support BG again and judging by negative comments about SR's economy ever since SR2010 I'm not alone. I like so many aspects of the game and would part with money for the greenlight tomorrow could I be assured the economy works and would probably help kickstart future endeavours unlike my attitude towards your last attempt but as said one of the fundamental features in a grand strategy game needs some attention and has for along time. Thanks for reading.

[mfisher12]

Just based on my brief experience so far, the economy is pretty much warmed-over from 2010/2020/CW with a couple of new resources (like Rubber). Same with Diplomacy, which feels exactly like it did in CW.

Playing as the US, it shouldn't take me months of bribes and gifts to get England to accept a Free Trade agreement. Winston Churchill would have been ecstatic at some of the offers I've tendered, but SR1936 England wants to be obstinate and pretend that the wolf isn't breathing down his neck.

The key indices of unemployment and inflation are now hidden in an easy-to-miss mouse-over popup, but unless you ride herd on your economic expansion, taxes and government subsidies from the opening turn, you'll once again find yourself mired in a hopelessly high inflation spiral/low manpower pool situation which is almost impossible to overcome quickly.

To me, the economy and diplomacy have been the weak links in all of the Supreme Ruler games. It's possible to build a healthy country with practice, but I wonder how many new players quit and never come back because the rules are so obscure, complicated and punitive?

Face it, SR1936's main competitor here is Hearts of Iron and I can't honestly say that there's anything that makes this a better game than HOI.

I'd love to be dissuaded.

[Balthagor]

You're both discussing a beta where we've clearly indicated these areas haven't been the focus of updates yet...

[mattpilot]

because the rules are so obscure,

this.

people like to understand whats going on

[mfisher12]

You're both discussing a beta where we've clearly indicated these areas haven't been the focus of updates yet...

My apologies. Ironically, you've gotten my hopes up again

[ozmono2005]

You're both discussing a beta where we've clearly indicated these areas haven't been the focus of updates yet...

I haven't signed an NDA and wasn't clearly indicated to me which is why I asked. I also wasn't asking anyone to break their NDA, if early access in steam even contains such a thing (which in my experience with other games it hasn't) but thanks all the same to the person who did.

[mattpilot]

You're both discussing a beta where we've clearly indicated these areas haven't been the focus of updates yet...

I haven't signed an NDA and wasn't clearly indicated to me which is why I asked. I also wasn't asking anyone to break their NDA, if early access in steam even contains such a thing (which in my experience with other games it hasn't) but thanks all the same to the person who did.

He wasn't implying that you can't or shouldn't talk about it.... Here's more or less saying "Duh, 'course we haven't done anything yet cause we didn't get around to it yet'

[ozmono2005]

You're both discussing a beta where we've clearly indicated these areas haven't been the focus of updates yet...

I haven't signed an NDA and wasn't clearly indicated to me which is why I asked. I also wasn't asking anyone to break their NDA, if early access in steam even contains such a thing (which in my experience with other games it hasn't) but thanks all the same to the person who did.

He wasn't implying that you can't or shouldn't talk about it.... Here's more or less saying "Duh, 'course we haven't done anything yet cause we didn't get around to it yet'

Oh okay my bad.

[Balthagor]

No harm, no foul. It's all good.

There will be economy things to talk about, just not at this stage. You could bump this thread later in development when you feel we're likely to have more to say.

[forumname]

Here is how the Cold War economy works:

A is required for B,C, and D


B is required for E
C and D are required for F and G

Once you have ABCDEFG established, you completely own the game, no matter what happens.

Forgive me, but the original post just screams, "I played the game for 5 minutes, and gave up, because there were more than 4 buttons to push"....

If you need help with the economy, PM me, and I will be happy to break it down for you.

[ozmono2005]

Here is how the Cold War economy works:

A is required for B,C, and D


B is required for E
C and D are required for F and G

Once you have ABCDEFG established, you completely own the game, no matter what happens.

Forgive me, but the original post just screams, "I played the game for 5 minutes, and gave up, because there were more than 4 buttons to push"....

If you need help with the economy, PM me, and I will be happy to break it down for you.

That's not very helpful at all. If you want to explain the economy than do so but you didn't rather you just tried to insult my intelligence by pretending that it was easy to understand and I was incapable of even trying. Also if you look at my user date I joined in 2005 and have posted here over 500 times which would be odd for someone who gave up after 5 mins wouldn't you agree? As someone who has been around for awhile I've also seen it as a common complaint since BG first released SR2010 so it's not just me either. I know the game economy can be managed but it doesn't seem sensible. It seems erratic and weird which is why I ask for statistics such as a transparent economic manpower pool so I can see for myself how the economy works. This is a good example because you have no real way (other than lots of experience) to know how much industry to build and how much of your workforce will be required in services and so on. If the economic system works as intended than a little information given to the user would help them understand it.

[mfisher12]

Ozmono, from what I've seen so far, SR1936 economy works like it did in the previous SR games. So you could read the Wiki and some of the other help guides out there on setting up your economy.

The CW change to trade relations is probably the only thing you need to worry about once you grasp the SR2010-2020 mechanics. Trades work differently and they affect diplomacy differently.

Based on what Balthagor has said, I'm hoping there are some fundamental and positive changes to come in the way the economy works. Keep your fingers crossed.

[forumname]

You are looking at the game in the wrong light.

Cold War is an economical simulation.

The reward for doing well in this arena is being able to build armaments and obliterate the world at your discretion.


I am not going to explain the economy in a giant wall of text on the forums....

What if I provided you with a saved game, with a multi-trillion dollar economy operating in full swing, so that you can see what it looks like end-game...?

(no mods, or editing used, straight up sandbox/campaign)

perhaps I can just list some stats....

Russia: 1982
population 1.48 billion
income: 13.2 trillion
expenses: 11.4 trillion

facilities:
agri: 2697
water:1299
timber 792
oil : 682 (oil/gas field)
70 (derrick)
coal: 1110
ore: 506
uranium: 467
consumer goods: 318
mid: 95
micro: 1
industrial goods: 951
mid: 63
micro: 4
Military goods: 216
mid:68

power:
coal: 2302
hydro: 274
nuke: 550
petrol: 782


The point is this:

The two main bottlenecks in the game are power, and industrial goods.
For power, you need "fuel"....in the early parts of the game these are coal, and oil.

to manufacture industrial goods, you need power, oil, and minerals (ore).

Each commodity shows you exactly what you need to produce it, and the numbers above are intended to show just what that means when all are combined. Look at how many power plants are listed above....(forget for a moment that nuclear, and dark matter(my typical choice in later games) produce vast amounts of power)

Industrial goods plants....that supply consumer and military....


Use the figures and realize that yes, it takes a shitload of power and industrial to keep up with the demands of consumer goods, without having shortages. Use the above and always remember that if you "win" the economy game, you will win the "war" game.

[Aragos]

Just based on my brief experience so far, the economy is pretty much warmed-over from 2010/2020/CW with a couple of new resources (like Rubber). Same with Diplomacy, which feels exactly like it did in CW.

Playing as the US, it shouldn't take me months of bribes and gifts to get England to accept a Free Trade agreement. Winston Churchill would have been ecstatic at some of the offers I've tendered, but SR1936 England wants to be obstinate and pretend that the wolf isn't breathing down his neck.

The key indices of unemployment and inflation are now hidden in an easy-to-miss mouse-over popup, but unless you ride herd on your economic expansion, taxes and government subsidies from the opening turn, you'll once again find yourself mired in a hopelessly high inflation spiral/low manpower pool situation which is almost impossible to overcome quickly.

To me, the economy and diplomacy have been the weak links in all of the Supreme Ruler games. It's possible to build a healthy country with practice, but I wonder how many new players quit and never come back because the rules are so obscure, complicated and punitive?

Face it, SR1936's main competitor here is Hearts of Iron and I can't honestly say that there's anything that makes this a better game than HOI.

I'd love to be dissuaded.

In HOI (and yeah, I've played all three plus the add-ons) the USA can do very, very little diplomatically before the historical late 1941 events. You can draw yourself into the Allied sphere, but the rules pretty much preclude you from jumping right into the war (early versions of HOI3 didn't do this, so you could end up with a USA at war with GER in 1939).

If you play the USA in the Beta of 1936, and you wait until 7 Dec 41, once the USA is at war you can get all the diplo options you need. I was, by early 1942, allied with all the major Allied powers, plus all of Central and Latin America--without spending a dime on bribes

[George Geczy]

As Chris mentioned (and thanks for the translation, mattpilot ) these areas have not received a major effort at final balancing yet, but they will certainly not be ignored.

The resource balances have been tweeked and played with, but the problem is that if we loosen them up to much then everyone can just go crazy and build at a historically-invalid rate. But the way they are now, industrial goods can tighten up so much as to bring everyone to their knees, and also make playing the game rather tiresome. You would think that there would be some sort of happy medium point, but surprisingly there isn't (or, it certainly isn't easy to find).

One idea I'm toying with for the next beta update (probably going up Monday) is to give everyone a much greater "strategic reserve" stating stock of industrial goods. When I've tried this in the past it usually results in an initial glut on the market that lasts 6 months to a year, as everyone sells of the stocks to make money, and then things get even worse as everyone hits the huge hangover when the stocks run out. However, I'm thinking that if Ministers and AI rulers hold back and protect their strategic reserve somewhat, then this feast/famine cycle may not be so severe. Smart regions will then invest the industrial goods reserve, hopefully to build up their own industrial capacity, and create a smoother growth curve.

Regarding the other element, balancing of AI diplomacy, this will also see some work, but it's a tricky bit. As noted in this thread, you don't want to make it easy for a player to get way ahead of the curve and make alliances much before they were historically valid... on the other hand, the point about a lack of feedback about WHY things are being rejected is a problem. In particular, being same-sphere with your trading partner is very important, but it is not clear to players that this is in fact the case.

-- George.