Must Have Events for 1936

[Lea]

Event request: If germany doesn't DOW the USSR within 2-3 months of the original barbarossa invasion date, the USSR DOW's Germany. Today it's pretty clear this would have been the case, as the soviets had over 500 divisions getting organized for a blitz invasion of Germany. Even Stalin's son was to take part in it.

WTF? Who said this to you? There was less than half of it. Also rearmament was began (tanks, airplanes, etc)...

[suaske666]

Event request: If germany doesn't DOW the USSR within 2-3 months of the original barbarossa invasion date, the USSR DOW's Germany. Today it's pretty clear this would have been the case, as the soviets had over 500 divisions getting organized for a blitz invasion of Germany. Even Stalin's son was to take part in it.

WTF? Who said this to you? There was less than half of it. Also rearmament was began (tanks, airplanes, etc)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_off ... ontroversy
Also note that Wikipedia is quite a bad source in terms of ww2 controversies as just as the mainstream media it does receive quite a bit of censorship on many subjects. One obvious example would be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip.
I'm not going to imply anything concrete other than to think about that while reading that article and the books mentioned in it.

[Lea]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_off ... ontroversy
Also note that Wikipedia is quite a bad source in terms of ww2 controversies as just as the mainstream media it does receive quite a bit of censorship on many subjects.

1st, don't you want to choose only one: the Wikipedia or disbelief in it?
2nd , this can be a hypothetical scenario only, it can't be an expected way even without Germany's attack on USSR. Soviet forces had about 300 divisions at all (like Germany with its allies) and a would-be aggressor behind his back (parallel again). But the Stalin wasn't the exhilarated of success, he preferred to bully an admittedly weak opponents. The Wikipedia says rightly that the Stalin could want to attack later, after rearming and reorganization of the Soviet forces and poopout of German.

[suaske666]

Well I respectfully disagree. Considering that invasion plans were found I think it would be a more than likely scenario. Impossible to know for sure. Also I'm pretty sure that just the western soviet front contained over 500 divisions, and by mid barbarossa Germany had captured/destroyed over 600.

[Ruges]

The plans found about mobilizing into germany can easily be used in the exact oposite way. Russia could have been planing on joining germany in the war with Europe.

Instead lets look how Russia reacted when it got DOW. Stalin basicaly holed up for a month figuring it was the end of the world before he was finaly rallied by??? (dont remember if it was his generals or peoples).

[suaske666]

We know for a fact there wouldn't have been any chance of them joining up. After all what gain would either of them have had from that? As for Stalin's reaction, it was a logical one. The armies were positioned for invasion, and that kind of disorganized offensively positioned army is almost useless against a well coordinated full throttle attack. Once it was in full swing only long distance could stop it. In the end that coupled with bad decision making on the side of the German generals led to a defeat, but Stalin would have been a fool to predict such an outcome. Everyone was sure the Germans would win. Even at the beginning of 1942 the Germans still had a hell of a shot.
My point is, if stalin wasn't getting ready to invade, wouldn't he have positioned his troops on more defensive lines, and had defense plans?

[Lea]

Well I respectfully disagree. Considering that invasion plans were found I think it would be a more than likely scenario.

It wasn't the true invasion plans. Each General/Joint Staff develops a variety of plans against potential enemies (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... _war_plans)

Impossible to know for sure.

It's not the case. The most important thing it's not a single classified document or map. Most important thing is the movement of millions man, millions tons cargo and weaponry. They can't hide because it creates a millions of documents which haven't direct relation to the future war, like a waybills.

Also I'm pretty sure that just the western soviet front contained over 500 divisions, and by mid barbarossa Germany had captured/destroyed over 600.

You are pretty sure, but documents disagree with you. Of course, conspiracy theories can confirm anything. However, the losses is easy to check through the related data, like manning charts, a numbers of captive and hospitalized, etc. 600 divisions is the peak numbers the Red Army.

Stalin basicaly holed up for a month figuring it was the end of the world before he was finaly rallied by??? (dont remember if it was his generals or peoples).

It's not the case. Stalin's visit log was full with misses only 29-30 June (when Minsk was taken).

The armies were positioned for invasion

Not the Soviet. German generals have seen this and have described this (Halder, Guderian, Manstein).

My point is, if stalin wasn't getting ready to invade, wouldn't he have positioned his troops on more defensive lines, and had defense plans?

He did even more: the Soviet army was unusable for offense and defence at once.

[LeonTrotsky]

Absolutely great book to settle this dispute is Thunder in the East, plus it provides much more accurate numbers for divisions and plans (the author actually finds and references plans, military numbers/strength etc.). It was a very interesting book to read and really examines the Soviet/Nazi war.

http://www.amazon.com/Thunder-East-Nazi ... german+war

[LeonTrotsky]

1) It is a very small thing, (although may take some coding), but it has Always bothered me greatly in all of the previous Supreme Ruler Games how nations like North and South Korea, or East and West Germany remain like that when they are either unified or one is taken by another nation. In cases like these I would love it for these types of nations to be changed to the simple name (Korea, Vietnam, etc.) to show a change that would obviously be made.

2) When you are controlling a nation, that leader's image appears as your avatar, and when that leader historically changes or in an election it changes to the new leader as your avatar.. For example if im in the 50's my avatar would be Eisenhower, but in 1960-61 it would change to Kennedy.

3) A shattered world scenario from the get go...

4) the ability to choose successors from a list when controlling Fascist, Communist, or Dictatorial nations. With consequences in relation to the choice.

5) Implement a much more in depth election system in Nations.... maybe even have a tab under the state minister for election campaigns, or in the case of dictators, propaganda campaigns.

6) the possibility for civil war outbreaks. Now not only having to worry about outside nations but your own nation buckling under you if it gets worse enough could add a new element to game play. Also when changing governments during gameplay, like from Democracy to Dictatorship being forced to overthrow the current government loyal forces would be interesting.

7) The adding of "Wonder Weapons" as a technology branch. like super tanks, ballistic missiles, etc.

transfer from another thread.

By the way, if something like this was added and expanded on within the games, I would love the game and the creators forever (just a random side note)

[adige]

Only thing I want is speed. Yes I now game is already to fast for you guys but, for normal people it is very very slow after couple years. We are very get used to HOI and EU series and after these games, yours look very slow.

[Balthagor]

Well, this is neither HoI nor is it EU. However, we do seem to be squeezing a bit more speed out of the engine.

Also, I have yet to have anyone send me a savegame that is "slow" even in CW. If you have one - Vanilla, not a mod - send it over. I put that challenge out months ago and no one sent me one.

[MK4]

I`ve seen the Second Vienna Award (Romania being forced to give up part of Transylvania to Hungary by Germany and Italy) mentioned a few times above. It`s an important event for both Romania and Hungary, but its existence depends on what happens before it to Romania.

The break or make moment for Romania was actually the Soviet ultimatum of 26 June 1940
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occ ... _ultimatum
which demanded that Romania give up Besserabia and Northern Bukovina. It was the first loss of territory for ww2 Romania, it deprived it of a significant part of its population (including army units recruited from those provinces), it resulted in a further weakening of its military by the loss of its fortifications from that area and the loss of equipment during the evacuation, it broke the morale of the army and the general population, it fatally weakened the existing regime and put Romania on a course on the Axis side, leading to the other territorial concessions. Being such a key event it has to be included.

The elements that should cause this event in game are two imo:
1. the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact;
- if for whatever reason Germany and the USSR are at war already or in bad terms (no pact), it should be unlikely to happen as Germany would not risk an uncontrolled soviet advance towards the romanian oilfields and would probably be willing to intervine against the Soviets one way or another, something the Soviets would know.

2. the defeat of France and the evacuation from Europe of the defeated British forces;
- if France holds on and is strong, the USSR should be less likely to give the ultimatum to Romania and even if it presents it, Romania should be likely to reject it, with the french backing Romania according to their alliance.

Historically, Romania accepts the ultimatum after pressure from Germany, Italy and unwillingness from its few remaining allies(who had their own problems) to intervene. There is however the possibility that the player controls Romania and decides to reject the ultimatum to consider. There`s a question of what would happen. Probably:

1. the Soviets would invade Romania.
2. Bulgaria would probably not attack Romania being still checked by Yugoslavia and Greece with which Romania had alliances and it also had Turkey to worry about.
3. The question is what would Hungary and Germany do. Most likely is that Hungary would not escalate without German approval and it would not get that unless Germany is prepared to invade Romania too to secure the oilfields. Plus, Romania still has an alliance with Yugoslavia to keep Hungary (presuming it would act alone) in check. The most likely scenario here would be that Germany (as well as Italy) would diplomatically pressure Romania to give up right away and constrain Hungary from acting on its own in order not to risk a collapse of Romania before Germany and not the Soviets could fill the vacuum.
However, if the fighting drags on instead of the matter being quickly resolved in the USSR favor OR if the Soviets make great advances beyond the two mentioned provinces then Germany (along with Hungary) would also invade Romania and partition it if successful (Besserabia and Bukovina would go to the Soviets, Transylvania would reward Germany`s ally Hungary and Southern Dobruja would go to Bulgaria, with the rest occupied by the germans). In the face of such force, Yugoslavia would probably not react militarily to help Romania. The consequences are that Romania would not join the Axis and there would not be a Second Vienna Award or a Treaty of Craiova as we historically know them.


The other event that hasn`t been mentioned in this thread so far is the Treaty of Craiova of 7 September 1940
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Craiova
under which terms Romania ceded Southern Dobruja to Bulgaria. The treaty also provided for a population exchange btw, with romanians from Bulgaria being resettled to Romania and bulgarians from Romania being resettled to Bulgaria.

The condition for this would be that Romania accepts the soviet ultimatum mentioned above (which also means that France had been defeated). If Romania resists the soviet ultimatum and is defeated, Southern Dobruja would again go to Bulgaria courtesy of Germany.
In game terms I think the casus belli between these two countries should depend on Southern Dobruja. If Romania gives it to Bulgaria willingly then the two should be likely to peacefully coexist.

EDIT: btw, since the game starts in 1936 it ought to incorporate the two regional alliances:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_entente
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Pact

[suaske666]

Well, this is neither HoI nor is it EU. However, we do seem to be squeezing a bit more speed out of the engine.

Also, I have yet to have anyone send me a savegame that is "slow" even in CW. If you have one - Vanilla, not a mod - send it over. I put that challenge out months ago and no one sent me one.

That's probably because people use cheats and are afraid to admit it still, the game does seem quite a bit faster with the update

[Zuikaku]

There was a serious chance for Soviets to join Axis. The talks were held and agreement was almost reached. I think that such a possibility should be modelled in the game (maybe 30% chance to happen).

n October and November 1940, German–Soviet Axis talks occurred concerning the Soviet Union's potential entry as a fourth Axis Power. The negotiations included a two-day Berlin conference between Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov, Adolf Hitler and German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop, followed by both countries trading written proposed agreements. Germany never responded to a November 25, 1940, Soviet proposal, leaving the negotiations unresolved. Germany broke the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in June 1941 by invading the Soviet Union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2% ... Axis_talks

[Balthagor]

I disagree in terms of historical events. I've been reading Fateful Choices among other books and they are quite clear that Hitler never really wavered from wanting to crush the Soviets. He often game underlings a chance to pitch ideas other than attacking Russia but was never close to convinced. The Russians likely would have been happy to join. but Hitler wanted Russia destroyed.

If you play as Germany you can offer them whatever you like.

And this thread is for "must haves", the focus should be on what did happen that we need to include, not what might have happened. Perhaps we need an alternate history section in off topic to explore ideas like this.