Your gonna want to look at the economy and trade system....

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tkobo
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Your gonna want to look at the economy and trade system....

#1 Post by tkobo » Jan 24 2013

A large dilpo trade now results in some phantom expenses that eat up the value of the trade +

So if my economy is humming along at $50m+ surplus a day,and i make a trade for $3b,my expenses jump immediately and remain at the new higher total til the entire trade money + has been eaten by this mystery additional expense....

After the trade money has been eaten,the expenses mysteriously drop back down and the economy surplus slowly climbs back to the point they were before the trade.

This makes a diplo trade pointless and even worse,harmful.

This is a rather large flaw.
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PyongYang
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Re: Your gonna want to look at the economy and trade system.

#2 Post by PyongYang » Jan 24 2013

Damn VAT.

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Re: Your gonna want to look at the economy and trade system.

#3 Post by PyongYang » Jan 24 2013

Actually, now you mention it, I've seen this too. I was trying to cut lots of costs recently to balance my books, and was having problems working out where it came from. I'd been doing a lot of trade. I think it's possibly coming through as facility costs.

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Re: Your gonna want to look at the economy and trade system.

#4 Post by Balthagor » Jan 24 2013

I"ve read that four times and am still a little lost. So you gave away 3B$ and your expense jumped?

I've done test game starting from the US and striped away nearly all expenses and income (can't stop facilities, UN or preparedness). I could not get a stable deficit because of GDP/c falling but it was dropping by ~ 1M per day. I gave Canada 3B dollars and it continued to drop 1M per day.

Do you have a savegame for this?
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tkobo
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Re: Your gonna want to look at the economy and trade system.

#5 Post by tkobo » Jan 24 2013

Gave away ?

No, i sold a commodity via diplo trade .

This results in a large jump in expenses.One i can find no full explanation for in the break down of expenses.It MIGHT be partially tied to an odd increase on production expense.Which makes no sense,and even if this is part of it,its only part as its way short of the total expense rise.
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Re: Your gonna want to look at the economy and trade system.

#6 Post by tkobo » Jan 24 2013

http://www.filefactory.com/file/5fdp2n6g3obn/3-26.SAV

Start game.
Select india,UK,west germany, or japan in diplo.
Arrange a dilpo sale to them of a commodity.
---industrial goods or consumer goods work best as they are high value.
make the sale ,and watch the expenses instantly increase.
--the bigger the sale in $,the bigger the increase in expenses.
--a circa $1b sale often results in a circa $50m a day expense increase,
--a circa $3b sale can cause a circa $200m a day expense increase.
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Balthagor
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Re: Your gonna want to look at the economy and trade system.

#7 Post by Balthagor » Jan 24 2013

Still investigating;

- when goods are sold it seems to increase "production" expenses (cost to produce? Still tracing...)
- when money comes in social service costs go up.
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tkobo
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Re: Your gonna want to look at the economy and trade system.

#8 Post by tkobo » Jan 24 2013

A further look implies its not just trades...and it goes both ways (lowering and raising expenses)

Any large change to accounts,via new research,new military spending,etc...appears to cause the same automated rebalance of expenses by the AI even though its locked out from control....This includes an automatic lessening of expenses when a large amount of cash is lost by the region (thru various actions)
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Re: Your gonna want to look at the economy and trade system.

#9 Post by bvb » Jan 24 2013

Downloaded the save. Sold IG/MG to Britain for ~$4.75B, Social service costs went up ~3.4% (~$25B), Production costs up ~$20B compared to reloading and not making the sale. (Game starts on Feb 15, sale goes through Feb 16, numbers taken from start of Feb 17, when the change occurred.).

*Production cost increase is from volume. Prices of all commodities were identical with/without trade. IG production was ~7.5m on Feb 17 not doing the sale, 10.1m with the trade. Production is set @ 106% of demand, I left a 3.5 day reserve from the amount sold. Perhaps it is taking the # sold and adding it to calculated daily usage or upping production to reach a minimum stockpile/#days reserve? ***This seems to be the case. Did a same value trade (4.75B) but used fewer IG (leaving ~ 7-10 day reserve), production expense did not rise, IG production remained at 7.5m.

The social expense increase isn't sliders moving, they remain in the same place; it's the underlying "range" being recalculated. Eg recommended education without the trade was $102,984M, with the trade it was $106,464M. Current education setting was 91,790 vs 94,892. The increase is across the board in social spending, ~3.4% with this specific test. It does change with the size of the trade:

Tested some other trade values, Seems there is a ceiling hit ~$1B.
cash from trade -> Total social spending on Feb 17 (day after trade accepted) -> % increase compared to spending on Feb 17 without a trade
4.75B = $762,362M 3.4% increase
2.375B= $762,362M ''
1.19B = $762,362M ''
0.6B = $751,478M ~2%
0.3B = $744,414M ~1%
no trade = $737,423M
---------

Trigger seems to be a bit more obscure though. I tried my Soviet save, May 1950, sold IG/MG to China for $1.8B, expenses the day following the sale mirrored those of reloading, not making the sale and advancing to the next day. No increase to expenses at all. Image

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Re: Your gonna want to look at the economy and trade system.

#10 Post by PyongYang » Jan 25 2013

Balthagor wrote:...when money comes in social service costs go up.
Yes.... after a lot of trading, my highest cost is social services and facilities. I've been bulldozing facilities all over the place, and i just can't shake the deficit. I'm having to trade to keep in the black, so it goes around in circles!

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Re: Your gonna want to look at the economy and trade system.

#11 Post by tkobo » Jan 31 2013

any news on this ?
Wad ?
Gonna be reworked ?
etc....
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Re: Your gonna want to look at the economy and trade system.

#12 Post by Balthagor » Jan 31 2013

no news yet, I've passed it along to George.
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tkobo
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Re: Your gonna want to look at the economy and trade system.

#13 Post by tkobo » Apr 07 2013

When we took a look at our economic model over the last few updates of SRCW, one thing that became apparent is that our economic system did not properly respond to resources that experience a "windfall profit" due to big jumps in commodity prices.

An interesting comparison is to look at how the 'real world' has responded when certain commodities, such as oil or gold, jump suddenly in price. One thing that seems to happen is that the big mining and oil companies somehow manage to 'absorb' those big increases into their process. Since the Supreme Ruler games are not meant to simulate 100% state control, it can be thought of more as a "public-private partnership" - and when the cost of a resource goes up, the private elements suck up much more of that revenue into their costs. This could be considered a combination of profits by middlemen, market speculators, rich CEO's, rich shareholders, etc. One thing to remember is that the bigger cost of production does add directly to the GDP, so depending upon how big that resource sector is (compared to the rest of the economy), you should see a change as those production costs rise.

It's not a perfect method, but in the end it does more accurately represent the real world, and the end result is that as the state entity it's not possibly to make huge raw profits (at least not for long).

-- George.
The problem is, and its a HUGE one.As it works now,a large diplo trade actually costs the seller money.As the increase is FAR to large,and or lasts FAR to long.By the time this artificial cost expires,the seller often finds he not only no longer has the product traded,but he has less money than before he made the trade.
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tkobo
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Re: Your gonna want to look at the economy and trade system.

#14 Post by tkobo » Apr 12 2013

Ive looked at this a bit more, and it sure looks like some kind of purposeful training wheels function.......It really looks like the system is now setup to contain player actions.....

It does so,by auto countering large gains ,and large losses....kind of like the ultimate dumbing down of play where the system sits on the players shoulder and stops the player from great success or great loss thru certain actions by auto countering them.
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