OOB errors

[Balthagor]

Empty rows don't matter. Feel free to send me the file to see if we'd like to include some of your data.

To see the changes in game, you'll need to rebuild your cache file (instructions on the Wiki, can take up to 90mins for the game to build it)

[Zuikaku]

E-mailed. Thanks

[number47]

This is still incorrect with beta update 2.45...
Balth, was this even considered?

[geminif4ucorsair]

Since I haven't seen this topic anywhere decided to open one
I've noticed some serious OOB errors in some contries. BTW, let's look at Yugoslavia which had very strong air force in 1949. But in this game it has no air force at all. Here is the yugoslav air force OOB:

By the end of the war 17 109's were left and ceded to new Yugoslav air force. These were stored until 59 more were acquired from Bulgaria in 1946. The Yugoslav Air Force used a mix of G-2, G-6, G-10 and G-12 aircraft. The aircraft were used until about the middle of 1952.
Yugoslav Air Force (Jugoslovensko Ratno Vazduhoplovstvo - JRV) operated a fleet of Douglas Dakotas for 40 years, from 1946 untill 1986. In total Air Force operated 41 aircraft of this type.
Also, 3 squadrons of Yak-3s were operated from 1945 to 1953 (with ~60 machines).
16 Yak-9T, 40 Yak-9P, 47 Yak-9D/M and 68 Yak-9U aircraft were used from 1944-1950/1960
A Spitfire Squadron was operated from 1943 till 1951 (~20 machines).
Yugoslav air force also received 213 aircraft in Il-2M3 and UIl-2 versions in 1945 and used them until 1954.

Here is a run-down that should help - and first, the Bf-109s should have been included, using two separate UNITID#s, and there is an
oversight no one else dealing with this post (and a related one on tanks) missed!

1]. SPITFIRE Vs (Mk. Vb and Mk.Vc versions) -

After WW2, in 1946 all were gathered into the JRV 1st Escadrille Air Regiment. A total of 65 Mk. Vs (#9951) were delivered, plus 3 PR.Mk.XIs (#13396). Some sources are incorrect, according to Yugo documents, that the latter were Mk.IX but are Mk.XI recon version.
We were over-generous - allocating 150 aircraft - one reason was British sources referring to hand-overs -
there references indicate a total of 160 Mk.Vs transferred to Yugoslavia. This may well be fact, and without taking the time to check all my Spitfire Mk.V registration numbers and fates, it shall remain undetermined - accepting a lower figure used by the Yugoslav's.

Yugos doc's on squadron (air regiments) numbers is vague, but within the 1st Esc. A.Rgt, was the 103rd Ftr. Squadron (I have profile drawings of some Spitfires in my files but will not post - too off topic).

The three Mk.XIs are not enough to rate a 1/2 squadron and therefore do not meet SR-CW minimum size requirements.
It can be noted from the early-50s (once P-47Ds replaced front-line Spitfires), those remaining were largely converted to 2-camera fitted
reconnaissance aircraft and remained as such into their final days.

CHANGE: Adjust the Spitfire (Unit #9951) to:

* 4 x Squadron - 16 aircraft p/squadron (one aircraft crashed twice...one in the JRV Museum!)

-------------

2]. Me-109 - The number of 109s in JRV service was 59 (not 60 as in one post). This was broken down into the following numbers:

* 6 x Me-109G-2 (not represented in SR-CW)
* 32 x Me-109G-6 (+ 1xUMe-109G-6 two-seat conversion trainer (#9960)
* 9 x Me-109G-10 (#9198)
* 4 x Me-109G-14 (use #9198)

Of these, in the immediate post-45 period, 5 were immediate write-offs (largely due to crashed of inexperienced pilots), 3 were converted to 2-seat (UMe-109) conversions, and one G-10 was converted to a reconnaissance aircraft.

CHANGE:
* 2 x Me-109G-6 - #9960
* 1 x Me-109G-10 - #9198 - this combines G-10, G-14, and a couple G-2s into one unit.

-------------

3]. HURRICANE IV - a find, not noted by others!

In the 1945 Allied operations over the southern Balkans, the Free Yugoslav air force operated a total of 35 Hurricane IV fighter-bombers.
Prior to war's end, they operated from Vis and two dispersal airfields in the Zadir area. Those aircraft were handed over to the new JRV
post-war and remained in service to August 1952.
MIA CULPA - I knew of their wartime ops but did not have evidence the Hurricanes survived to Nov 49...hence, they were not included.
Considering that a few were probably hacks and write-offs, it is generous to give 2xsquadrons (as below) - but what the heck!

CHANGE:
[add] 2 x Hurricane IV - 16 aircraft each - #10070

----------------

4] C-47A/B Skytrain -

The number found available in 1949 was only 28.....granted as many as 41 may have served. Doubtless some were transferred after
US MDAP began in 1951, which may account for some of the further C-47, as well as Yugoslavia buying surplus Dakotas (Skytrain) from
other European air forces retiring and selling them off.

CHANGE: Squadron number should read: 2 x C-47A/B Skytrain (vice 1) - with 14 aircraft p/squadron (that one goes on BG...!).

----------------
Most of this got done a lot faster than would have been preferred, as BG was under a delivery deadline that forces some cut-off dates
that made a more complete review of records less than what it might have been with more time. Mia culpa.

The numbers regards Yak's and other Soviet aircraft will be looked at in view of above posts, but numbers in late-49 would not equate
to total numbers eventually that served. Must retreat to Soviet doc's now.....

A follow-on post will address the Sherman and T-34/85s questions in some posts.

Hope this helps with most questions.

[geminif4ucorsair]

In general, in SR Cold War setting, I believe Yugoslavia deserves it's own region code for military unit designs since some other countries that didn't have major (or any) role in that era have their own (the comment how this is because the codes are transfered from SR2020 is not an excuse because this game is being advertised as a new game not an expansion for the SR2020 ). Yugoslavia was also one of the founders of Non-Aligned Movement (founded in Belgrade in 1961) and had quite big military power (fear of being attacked by either side) throughout the cold war period compared to some other european countries up until the break in the '90s so I believe that Yugoslavia is/was unfairly neglected by the devs.

Actually, it is "not off topic" in my view.

One might consider that the southern Balkan states should be separated, if I had my preferences.

Am not sure what BG is doing with Region codes and whether some should be changed for Update 3 or not, but it is certainly a topic worth raising and for BG to review....my concern, is there maybe, in their view, other 'greater' priorities in-hand.

[Balthagor]

A Yugoslav region code was considered but time constraints and other file issues complicated the matter. Maybe in the future...

[geminif4ucorsair]

So, the OOB will be correct then after the patch?!
Yugoslavia also had T-34 tanks. By the 1948 they received over 400 T-34/85 tanks.
They also had substantial numbers of 88mm FLAKs (actually, they were extensively used during 1991-1995 war). Croatians used them in coastal areas very successfully in anti tank and anti shipping roles.
also 7,5cm pak guns were used well into the '60s.

Yes, some corrections are in order....one's some players might not appreciate!

1]. T-34-85 medium tank (#2154):

The total inventory should be 308 tanks....SR-CW gave 7xbattalions....using BG's battalion unit of 66 vehicles p/battalion, that means
"4.66" battalions and not "7"......
Some sources list only 300, others more recent, including that number in storage when the civil war began, use 308 - good enough for me.
Remember, some do get lost through accidents, totally wear out, or become instructional vehicles for mechanics, drivers, etc.

CHANGE: T-34-85 to: 4.5 x T-34-85 [reduced from 7xbns.]

---------------------

2]. M4A3E4 SHERMAN (#2171) -

After reviewing some Yugo sources, here is some information and what I recommend:

a] Total M4A3E4 delivered to Yugoslavia was 630......about half were in-country prior to Nov 1949 SR-CW START date. Others, unclear
how many, came with MDAP deliveries from 1951, including 300 M47 Patton, M18 (76) Hellcat, M36 (90) Jackson, and M3A3/A5 Stuart light tanks, artillery and several thousand military trucks, etc. This was, however, after game start.

The initial M4 Sherman's delivered to Yugoslavia were M4A3 W(Wet) 75mm gun versions. Have found no document source that lists how many were handed-over, mostly likely from British army stocks in Italy and North Africa after the war. This would follow the pattern set
by British army transfer of M3 Stuart light tanks, during the Balkan fighting and retained post-war.

My records indicate - and backed up by some Yugo data - shows 630 M4 Sherman were delivered. This, at 32 tanks p/Bn in SR-CW,
would make 19.5875 battalions(!)....lets say "19.5". Have not seen any MDAP declassified documents that indicate the totality of vehicles
transferred - really complete data - from 1951, so we don't really know how many came before Nov 49, or after. Splitting the difference
seems reasonable. That Yugo depot level shops were converting all of them to 76mm gun versions, with some armor upgrades about equal to the US Army M4A3E8 W (Easy Eight) - UNITID#2171 - is clear, but not all would have been upgraded by Nov 49. In all probability,
the US and British donated a few hundred surplus 76mm M1A1C or M1A2 Mount M62 turrets to help in the effort, under MDAP aid. Photos
in my files show a nearly similar turret in most vehicles, with only slight bussel differences on a few vehicles.

My recommendations for a Orbat change would be as below:

* * M4A3E W (75mm) Sherman (#2124) - 10 battalions

* * M4A3E4 W (76mm) Sherman (#2171) - 9.5 battalions


In addition to the above, the Yugos did a later conversion in the '60s-70s involving replacing the original US engine with a T-55 diesel engine, offering easier maintenance and greater range for their vehicles. It is unclear how many were converted to this standard. It is not
a mod in the SR-CW (sort of follows what the Israeli's did with some of their original Sherman engines - unclear who got the idea from whom, though Israeli's were providing technical and military advise in Yugoslavia in those decades.).

NOTE on Tank Battalions & Yugo "Divisions". The Yugo army had three "Tank Divisions" in Nov 49 - 17th XX (Belgrade), 26th Tank XX (Skopje), and 20th XX (Zagreb) - these are represented in the orbat as summarized by BG - though BG did gut the number of infantry battalions significantly, which was part of a effort to reduce the number of Bns worldwide that the game engine had to handle (if you think Yugo omissions in infantry are bad, don't look at what happened to the Soviet army!).

It is unclear if the Yugo army in 1949 was using US or Soviet pattern tank division TOP/TOEs. The reference below on the M3 Stuarts shows they were built on US pattern battalions - 56 x A3 (and 19 x A1 surplus to UK needs) - were organized as the 1st Tenkovaki X
(Tank Brigade) in 1944 to fight in the Balkans, from British stocks.

The point is interesting in that US Sherman tank battalions usually had 32 vehicles, Soviet '46-55 used 65 medium tanks (T-34/85s, etc.).
If you went by the number of Soviet-equivalent battalions, you would have half the number available - but still the same number of vehicles. Something to remember when you are organizing you Battle Groups.
----------

3]. M3/M5 STUART -

a. The first M3A1 / A3s were delivered from the British in 1944, for the Partisal brigade fighting in Yugoslavia. The initial delivery was 53 x M3A3 and 4 x M3A1 Stuart. These were retained post-war. A SR-CW Stuart (#2122) battalion is 42 tanks. Up to 15 further surplus A-1s
may also have been handed-over, as British records indicate 75 total were delivered (56xA3s + the A-1s equals 75).

Further Stuarts were handed-over, most likely all ex-British in Italy, after the war. These were probably all -A3s.

Photos of Yugo A-3 and A-5 Stuarts are available. We know Stuarts were delivered under MDAP from 1951, and therefore were most likely either ex-US and some ex-UK (as the UK was returning all US equipment, unable to afford the spare parts cost post-war). No documents
I have indicate how many were transferred under MDAP. One source, http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 9708430288 -
from the Journal of Slavic Studies, may have some answers (but publisher wants a fortune for this old article!) and this provides some on-line background on MDAP - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_Def ... stance_Act.

Recommendation: change the orbat to:

2 x M3A1 Stuart battalions (reduced from 4)

Note. There is a data base build for the M5A1 Stuart, but was not activated by deadline for SR-CW, but may get assigned UNIT # for Update 3....if BG can get to. If that happens, option would be to use 1xM3A1 and 1xM5A1 battalion in the orbat. M3A3 was roughly equal
enough for SR purposes to use the M5A1 unit as equal.

NOTES. The Yugo's made some interesting conversions, including:
5xM3A1 into Anti-Tank Gun version, arming them with open-turret Pak50 75mm ATG gun. 3 were in service in 1949.
4xM3A3 into SPAAG with Flak 38V quad 20mm AA turret.
2xM3A2 into 81mm mortar - probable German mortar.
1xM3A3 into a SPG with a German 150mm sIG33 howitzer - lost early in combat and no more were converted post-war.

None of these are in Supreme Ruler data base and unless one wants to do mod's, unlikely to appear.

----------------------

Hope that answers most questions.

[number47]

Actually, it is "not off topic" in my view.

One might consider that the southern Balkan states should be separated, if I had my preferences.

Am not sure what BG is doing with Region codes and whether some should be changed for Update 3 or not, but it is certainly a topic worth raising and for BG to review....my concern, is there maybe, in their view, other 'greater' priorities in-hand.

Off topic, meaning this thread is about order of battle and my post should have probably go into development subforum

A Yugoslav region code was considered but time constraints and other file issues complicated the matter. Maybe in the future...

I still don't understand how localization had an impact on this (not saying that it didn't just that I don't get it)

[number47]

Yes, some corrections are in order....one's some players might not appreciate!

1]. T-34-85 medium tank (#2154):

The total inventory should be 308 tanks....SR-CW gave 7xbattalions....using BG's battalion unit of 66 vehicles p/battalion, that means
"4.66" battalions and not "7"......
Some sources list only 300, others more recent, including that number in storage when the civil war began, use 308 - good enough for me.
Remember, some do get lost through accidents, totally wear out, or become instructional vehicles for mechanics, drivers, etc.

CHANGE: T-34-85 to: 4.5 x T-34-85 [reduced from 7xbns.]

The thing is, there are no T-34 currently in the YU inventory when you start the game with Yugoslavia, so any change in this departament is a good change.
Also, the number 308 T-34/85 tanks is the exact number I found that was delieverd by USSR in second half of 1947 but than we are still missing the T-34/85 already in service in May 1945 during the Trieste crisis

These (the Trieste crisis T-34/85), togather with number of captured german T-34/76 tanks (captured from 5th waffen ss panzer divizion) rounded the number around 120 T-34's Yugoslavia had by 1946. So 308 T-34/85 from 1947 + 120 T-34/85/76 from 1945-1946 come to 428 T-34 Yugoslavia had in their inventory by the end of '40s (in the beggining of the '50s, the T-34 received the new registration numbers from 2.500 till 2.925 which generaly (-3) confirms what I said here.

[Zuikaku]

Hope this helps with most questions.

Thank you, that was most helpfull!
Yes, there were deliveries of Hurricanes. the problem is they were not serviceable by 1949.
In fact of all Spitfires, only ~20 were still serviceable in 1949- mostly due lack of spare parts, canibalization and inadequate maintenance. Bf-109s were in much better shape since there was some trained maintenance crew left from Croatian air force....

[geminif4ucorsair]

Yugoslav OOB is particularly innacurate. I don't know am i making any sense or help here, but I'll try to find ground forces OOb for '49. I'll change the OOB myself but I don't know how to do that and to who to send modified OOB. And Bulgaria also have somewhat wrong OOB....

Recognize first that BG changed lots of Region orbats from what was provided, most specifically in the Land category.
Main reason was to limit Infantry unit worldwide count, but also crossed over to several other ground battalion unit types as well,
in some of the larger countries. Nearly the whole Soviet Far East ground units, plus the existing Fortifications, are missing.

So, like the remarks above on Yugoslavian tanks, etc., there is room for corrections in lots of Regions.

Remember that as for the forthcoming Warsaw Pact armies, they almost do not existing in Oct 49.

[geminif4ucorsair]

Hope this helps with most questions.

Thank you, that was most helpfull!
Yes, there were deliveries of Hurricanes. the problem is they were not serviceable by 1949.
In fact of all Spitfires, only ~20 were still serviceable in 1949- mostly due lack of spare parts, canibalization and inadequate maintenance. Bf-109s were in much better shape since there was some trained maintenance crew left from Croatian air force....

Thanks for the view.
I would defer, however in changing the orbat (as above) with regard to Spitfires and Hurricanes.

Reason: We simply cannot track at the level of detail this would entail for the world's air forces (and, navies and armies), if we were to make the OOB/orbat on the basis of maintenance details, as much as it might be desirable. In the post-45 world, everyone was short of spare parts and equipments, except the U.S., UK and maybe the Russians (in the latter two cases, especially for Allied Lend-Lease equipment provided during the war). In the case of the U.K., the Brits were so short of money they had to return all
American equipment - aircraft, tanks, vehicles, ships - provided during the war, even though (especially in the case of carrier fighters), that equipment was far superior to what British industry had provided and available during 1945-49.

Consider this: the Russians kept their P-63 Kingcobra fighter-bombers and Spitfire IX fighters into the early-50s, until they could be replaced by jets, because in the case of the Spitfires, they could perform high-altitude intercepts that none of the other Russian designs (Lavochkin's, etc.) could. Therefore, it was the only way to intercept intruders at altitude, such as the RB-29s. Yet, despite
not being allowed to procure U.S. or U.K., spare parts in peacetime, they kept the operational (as in SR-CW initial orbat) with local
skills in machine making parts, etc.

In the specific case of Yugoslavia, were Stalin to have ordered his armies across Hungary and elsewhere to attack Yugoslavia, surely - even without alliances with the British, U.S. and other Europeans - some spare parts would have found their way into Zagreb or Belgrade, even if over the borders from Greece (who also had mid-period Spitfires), or Italy. Belgrade would have certainly also released precious monies to buy them, which in normal peacetime periods, other post-war priorities dominated federal budgets.

If we changed the Yugo air order-of-battle, then does this imbalance the regional OOB/orbat? (Relative to Bulgaria, Hungary and Czech's in particular - all of whom had similar problems in procuring spare parts). We simply do not know what level of operational status their aircraft were at, either.

Thus, if you begin changing one, then you have to do them ALL. And, who has the records (documents) for all those air forces (Argentine, Peru, the Balkans, Spain, etc. etc.)? Even the U.S. and probably Canada, these records would take years to retrieve or have posters offering insights. And, would they always be reliable insights?

I believe it is far better to error on the side of 'greater numbers', where posters can augment our initial research (found in a variety of on-line, books, and old documents) where minor tweeking of details can then be done. If a particular ship was in fact a derelick hulk in some port, or unable to perform buy training ship routines in event of war, then we can change that.

Don't mistake my view here. I am more than appreciative of poster comments - and documented where possible - conditions as they were in a particular army, air force, or navy. They are always welcomed and contribute to our collective knowledge. Bathagor is good at making changes, when details are available. No one person can have the totality of knowledge. There are doubtless other cases, which time constraints at BG did not allow for greater, more detailed research. Sometimes, what was reasonable and handy at the time, had to prevail. In other cases, as mentioned above, BG cut the number of battalions in some countries, to better accommodate the game engine. So, we move on.

My view anyway.

[geminif4ucorsair]

Yes, some corrections are in order....one's some players might not appreciate!

1]. T-34-85 medium tank (#2154):

The total inventory should be 308 tanks....SR-CW gave 7xbattalions....using BG's battalion unit of 66 vehicles p/battalion, that means
"4.66" battalions and not "7"......
Some sources list only 300, others more recent, including that number in storage when the civil war began, use 308 - good enough for me.
Remember, some do get lost through accidents, totally wear out, or become instructional vehicles for mechanics, drivers, etc.

CHANGE: T-34-85 to: 4.5 x T-34-85 [reduced from 7xbns.]

The thing is, there are no T-34 currently in the YU inventory when you start the game with Yugoslavia, so any change in this departament is a good change.
Also, the number 308 T-34/85 tanks is the exact number I found that was delieverd by USSR in second half of 1947 but than we are still missing the T-34/85 already in service in May 1945 during the Trieste crisis

These (the Trieste crisis T-34/85), togather with number of captured german T-34/76 tanks (captured from 5th waffen ss panzer divizion) rounded the number around 120 T-34's Yugoslavia had by 1946. So 308 T-34/85 from 1947 + 120 T-34/85/76 from 1945-1946 come to 428 T-34 Yugoslavia had in their inventory by the end of '40s (in the beggining of the '50s, the T-34 received the new registration numbers from 2.500 till 2.925 which generaly (-3) confirms what I said here.

I still have my doubts that the additional 120 T-34 are not part of the 308 total, or that they were otherwise useless (worn out) by late-1949, some of which came from captured German unit inventories (and of dubious operational use unless overhauled, and we know they did not keep the T-34-76s very long in that configuration. The best argument you have maybe in the Registration Numbers assigned (amounting to 425).

But, I respect your view and if players want to change their individual orbat records - to "6.5" battalions T-34/85s - go for it.

[number47]

@ gemini4ucorsair

Well, I greatly appreciate the time and effort you invested in unit errata and this thread (YU orbat in particular) and I have no intention of forcing any number changes or disputing your data. I think you are doing a great, detailed and very professional job in general and I just wanted to share some info I found on this subject.
No strings attached.

[Zuikaku]

If we changed the Yugo air order-of-battle, then does this imbalance the regional OOB/orbat? (Relative to Bulgaria, Hungary and Czech's in particular - all of whom had similar problems in procuring spare parts). We simply do not know what level of operational status their aircraft were at, either.

Well, my thinking is that OOB at current state is more imbalanced than it was in reality. I'll try to explain why.
Let's just look at the air force.
In game we have:
6X Yak-9 =108 machines
5X Yak-3 = 90 machines
8X Spitfire 5c = 144 machines
7X Pe-2 = 126 machines
2X C-47 = 36 machines
total 504 machines
And other types (Bf-109s and Il2s) are missing

And the thing is that after '47 Tito-Stalin split up, serviceability of soviet produced aircrafts was rapidly degrading. In fact, by 1949 situation was so catastrophical that western allies agreed to deliver substantial amounts of machines to Yugoslav air forces. Deliveries started in 1950 and lasted for few years (first P-47s and Texans were delivered and later jet aircrafts).
So, serviceability DOES matter, because most of soviet and british aircrafts delivered in '45 were not operational and beyond repair.
More correct numbers would be:

2X Yak-9 =36 machines
1X Yak-3 = 18 machines
1X Spitfire 5c = 18 machines
2X Bf-109g = 36 machines
2X Pe-2 = 36 machines
3X Il-2 = 54 machines
2X C-47 = 36 machines
total 254 machines

so, Yugoslavia loses, and thus do not imbalance region. Andd that is not about balance, but what was the real situation. Same is with tanks. Why not adding those T-34/85s since they got them? Infact, after WW2, Yugoslavia had more tanks and aircrafts than any of neighbouring countries. That was not balanced, but was a fact!