Unit Errata

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number47
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Re: Unit Errata

#316 Post by number47 » Dec 10 2012

geminif4ucorsair wrote:Not so ethnocentric....GC was trying to create a pattern of Western (and Soviet) infantry designs for the "Cold War" theme.....and,
"foreign legion" - which several countries (Spain, etc.) had comparable units, is one of those results. I know, brings tears to the eyes of Frenchmen everywhere.... :-)
Ok, I'm not French but I still wonder, shouldn't that unit at least be buildable by French (the unit is not buildable by F region as you may see)? :D
Or was it intentionally decided not to represent French Foreign Legion in the game?
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Re: Unit Errata

#317 Post by number47 » Dec 10 2012

Here are a few things I noticed so far while working on a mod:

UnitID 2822 „M47E1 Patton“ is Spanish upgraded version (mainly the engine) but actually armed with the same 90mm gun as original M47
UnitID 2273 „M47E2 Patton 90mm“ is Spanish upgraded version but actually armed with 105mm gun, and it shouldn't be buildable by "T" region.
UnitID 2175 „M46A1 Pershing“ I suggest re-naming to „M46A1 Patton
UnitID 2585 „M4A1 Sherman FL-10“ should be „M4A4 Sherman FL-10“ and should be buildable by "Z" region (Egypt).
UnitID 2857 „M50 Sherman Mark 1“ should be buildable by region "I" (Israel).
UnitID 2583 „M47 Patton“ crew should be 5 not 4.
UnitID 2592 „M48A5 Patton II“ (tech 57) should be re-named to “ M48A3 Patton II“
UnitID 2596 „M60A1 Patton“ and UnitID 2234 „M60A3 TTS Patton“ should have Patton removed from its name as M60 was never officialy called Patton.
UnitID 2261 „M60A3 Patton“ (tech 85) should have Patton in the name replaced with Magach 6C
UnitID 2243 "M103 Conqueror" and UnitID 2594 "M103A2 Conquerer II Heavy", either make those also buildable by "M" region or separate FV 214 Conqueror Mk I and Mk II into independent units buildable by "M" region.
UnitID 2209 „FV4007 (Pz.55) Centurion Mk 3“ should have (Pz.55) removed since Pz 55 was Swiss designation for Centurion Mk 5. I suggest renaming this unit to „FV4007 Centurion Mk 3“.
UnitID 2208 „FV4011 (Pz 57) Centurion Mk 5/2“ should have (Pz 57) replaced with (Pz 55) and therefore I suggest renaming it to „FV4011 Centurion Mk 5/2 (Pz 55)"
UnitID 2235 should be renamed to „Olifant Mk 1A“
UnitID 2282 should be renamed to „Olifant Mk 1B“
UnitID 2347 should be renamed to „Olifant Mk 2“
"M51 Super Sherman" and "J-61" both have UnitID number 2597...
As alwas, if I made a mistake in any of the suggestions, it was not intentional. :wink:
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Re: Unit Errata

#318 Post by Zuikaku » Dec 10 2012

Why MiG-21 Fishbed C has capability to carry missiles? Except AA missiles I've never heard that MiG-21 could carry any ground or sea strike missiles....
Please teach AI to liberate and colonize instead of only annexing!

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Re: Unit Errata

#319 Post by geminif4ucorsair » Dec 12 2012

number47 wrote:Here are a few things I noticed so far while working on a mod:

UnitID 2822 „M47E1 Patton“ is Spanish upgraded version (mainly the engine) but actually armed with the same 90mm gun as original M47
UnitID 2273 „M47E2 Patton 90mm“ is Spanish upgraded version but actually armed with 105mm gun, and it shouldn't be buildable by "T" region.
UnitID 2175 „M46A1 Pershing“ I suggest re-naming to „M46A1 Patton
UnitID 2585 „M4A1 Sherman FL-10“ should be „M4A4 Sherman FL-10“ and should be buildable by "Z" region (Egypt).
UnitID 2857 „M50 Sherman Mark 1“ should be buildable by region "I" (Israel).
UnitID 2583 „M47 Patton“ crew should be 5 not 4.
UnitID 2592 „M48A5 Patton II“ (tech 57) should be re-named to “ M48A3 Patton II“
UnitID 2596 „M60A1 Patton“ and UnitID 2234 „M60A3 TTS Patton“ should have Patton removed from its name as M60 was never officialy called Patton.
UnitID 2261 „M60A3 Patton“ (tech 85) should have Patton in the name replaced with Magach 6C
UnitID 2243 "M103 Conqueror" and UnitID 2594 "M103A2 Conquerer II Heavy", either make those also buildable by "M" region or separate FV 214 Conqueror Mk I and Mk II into independent units buildable by "M" region.
UnitID 2209 „FV4007 (Pz.55) Centurion Mk 3“ should have (Pz.55) removed since Pz 55 was Swiss designation for Centurion Mk 5. I suggest renaming this unit to „FV4007 Centurion Mk 3“.
UnitID 2208 „FV4011 (Pz 57) Centurion Mk 5/2“ should have (Pz 57) replaced with (Pz 55) and therefore I suggest renaming it to „FV4011 Centurion Mk 5/2 (Pz 55)"
UnitID 2235 should be renamed to „Olifant Mk 1A“
UnitID 2282 should be renamed to „Olifant Mk 1B“
UnitID 2347 should be renamed to „Olifant Mk 2“
"M51 Super Sherman" and "J-61" both have UnitID number 2597...
As alwas, if I made a mistake in any of the suggestions, it was not intentional. :wink:
Will take a look at what changes maybe appropriate....remember BG limited number of versions when SR2020 was released and this carried over to SR-CW as well.
Appreciate your time and effort....impressive.

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Re: Unit Errata

#320 Post by geminif4ucorsair » Dec 12 2012

Zuikaku wrote:Why MiG-21 Fishbed C has capability to carry missiles? Except AA missiles I've never heard that MiG-21 could carry any ground or sea strike missiles....
Mig-21C were adopted in later years to carry Kh-66, Kh-23 and Kh-23M....Western designation for all three was AS-7 (Kerry).
Kh-66 was designed for the Mig-23 (Flogger) for Soviet Tactical Aviation component and carried a 103-kg shaped-charge/HE warhead. It development trials were on a Mig-21PFM aircraft. Trials were rather poor in the result category, until mod's were made to the aircraft radar....later proving it was a better weapon than the 21-cm unguided air-to-ground rocket.

Kh-23 and Kh-23M followed, differing in the shape of the missiles rear body area (where the guidance system is housed). It was also a beam-rider, with target illumination based on the carrying aircraft radar presentation. Trials began in early-68, but service entry for Kh-23 only began in 1974 and Kh-23M in 1975. Several Warsaw Pact and other Soviet allies adapted the Kh-66 to existing Mig-21s - though never as common as on Mig-23s.
All are counterpart AGMs to U.S. Bullpup-A.
Last edited by geminif4ucorsair on Jan 09 2013, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Unit Errata

#321 Post by number47 » Dec 12 2012

geminif4ucorsair wrote:Will take a look at what changes maybe appropriate....remember BG limited number of versions when SR2020 was released and this carried over to SR-CW as well.
Appreciate your time and effort....impressive.
Thanks, but not much of an effort really. :wink: I begun working on a mod and after I made excel spreadsheet of .UNIT file with all units divided in classes and "region code" it was easy to spot potential "errors". Most of the suggestions are about simple re-naming of the unit to correspond to either tech level or real name used (but if some stats need to be adjusted as well, I leave that to you as I don't know if it is a case of simple incorrect name or the whole unit is incorrect, like in the case of Spanish "M47E2 105mm"-UnitID2273)...as for the limited number of versions, the only unit I suggested new version is the case of M103 and British Conqueror but even that case can be solved with just adding the design to "M" region code if new unit is out of the question. :wink:
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Re: Unit Errata

#322 Post by bvb » Jan 05 2013

Some I came across while doing some edits today: Following are currently not amphibious but should be.

Unit # 149 LVT-1 AMTRAC
Unit # 439 TPZ-1 ICV Fuchs
Unit # 446 BMP-2
Unit # 1324 TPZ-1 RC Fuchs (Fox) - recon version of 439
Unit # 4920 2S31 Vena 120mm Mortar
Unit # 6140 TPZ-1 Transportpanzer -transport/supply version of 439

*-> Unit 5310 ZSU-23-4 Shilka currently is Amphibious, but should not be.

Below should have aerial refueling capability, but currently do not

Unit # 9131 F-8 Crusader

- # 9180 F-12a Blackbird (Harder to find info online, but in books about the program the pilots speak of tanking operations, that it was capable, same as SR-71.

- # 9851 F8U-1/1e Crusader

- # 10156 A-7A Corsair II

- # 10232 A-37B Dragonfly (fueling probe was one of the additions in the B variant)

- # 10260 GA/1 Jaguar (SEPECAT Jaguar)

- # 10276 S-3B Viking ASW

- # 11069 F-8E Crusader

- # 11123 MiG-29K Fulcrum Naval (was built off the '29M, which was the first to include a probe as standard gear)

- # 11126 MiG-29M Fulcrum-M

- # 12156 B-52B Stratofortress (All B-52 variants were capable of in flight refueling)

- # 12157 B-52D Stratofortress

- # 12171 B-52G Stratofortress

- # 12175 Tu-22 Blinder *maybe: Probes added to new craft, retrofitted to existing starting in 1965, couple years after first entered service

- # 12178 A-5A Vigilante

- # 12223 A-3B Skywarrior

- # 13907 EA-6B Prowler

- # 13430 F8U-1P Crusader

Also, "early" unit pricing in some categories seems a bit out of whack. >= WW2, into ~1960ish in the Recon, AA & AT categories, as well as early(ish) small transport ships, which seem very expensive relative to other transports & combat vessels based on tonnage.

I don't have the unit #s & exact costs ATM, will edit a few exact examples later, but generally across the board in that timeframe. A 3-8 ton WW2 era armored car costs several times as much as a 35 ton WW2 tank of same era/nationality (eg BA-64 vs T-34/85, M8 & M4 Sherman), A WW2 20mm AA gun costing several times what a tank does, ditto the AT Guns, several times as much as tank mounting the same gun, and perhaps 10 times the price of a much larger caliber howitzer. In the later "early" years, the ZSU-57-2 is several times the price of a comparable year T-55. Once it gets into the 60s, the prices fall more in line as those previously cheaper systems' price tags begin to rapidly increase.

Obviously getting exact prices of each system in date of entry fiscal dollars is fantasy at best, only speaking of relative disparity here.

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Re: Unit Errata

#323 Post by Balthagor » Jan 08 2013

bvb wrote:Some I came across while doing some edits today: Following are currently not amphibious but should be.

Unit ...
Because I was updating the wiki pages I made this corrections and posted a new default.unit for modders that has these items corrected. Hopefully this is the beginning of me tackling more of the errata...

...but no promises.

http://www.supremewiki.com/node/49
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Re: Unit Errata

#324 Post by barkhauer » Jan 08 2013

USA: The A-3B Skywarrior (unit ID 12223) has the model/mesh of the AD-3 Skyraider, ie, single-engine, propeller, low-wing monoplane. It should be a twin-engine jet, instead.

The same also applies to the A3D-2Q Skywarrior ELINT, unit ID 13100.

The same also applies to the EKA-3B Skywarrior ELINT, unit ID 13122.

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Re: Unit Errata - A-3 Skywarrior

#325 Post by geminif4ucorsair » Jan 08 2013

barkhauer wrote:USA: The A-3B Skywarrior (unit ID 12223) has the model/mesh of the AD-3 Skyraider, ie, single-engine, propeller, low-wing monoplane. It should be a twin-engine jet, instead.
The same also applies to the A3D-2Q Skywarrior ELINT, unit ID 13100.
The same also applies to the EKA-3B Skywarrior ELINT, unit ID 13122.
Indeed...was assigned before my coming onboard. Never had the aircraft in my games, so never noted. :oops:

P.S. It's been updated on working copy mdb - also have added A-3A (A3D-1) Skywarrior, the first operational version.
Several spec's have also been changed on ID# 12223 (A-3B) and ELINT & EW/Tanker versions.

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Re: Unit Errata

#326 Post by geminif4ucorsair » Jan 10 2013

bvb wrote:Some I came across while doing some edits today: Following are currently not amphibious but should be.
Unit # 149 LVT-1 AMTRAC
Unit # 439 TPZ-1 ICV Fuchs
Unit # 446 BMP-2
Unit # 1324 TPZ-1 RC Fuchs (Fox) - recon version of 439
Unit # 4920 2S31 Vena 120mm Mortar
Unit # 6140 TPZ-1 Transportpanzer -transport/supply version of 439
Unit 5310 ZSU-23-4 Shilka currently is Amphibious, but should not be.

Below should have aerial refueling capability, but currently do not
Unit # 9131 F-8 Crusader
- # 9180 F-12a Blackbird (Harder to find info online, but in books about the program the pilots speak of tanking operations, that it was capable, same as SR-71.
ED. No problem - have data incorporated now.
- # 9851 F8U-1/1E Crusader
- # 11069 F-8E(FN) Crusader - French navy version with Matra 530 AAM.
- # 13430 F8U-1P Crusader
ED. Also added have been: #11068 F-8E (F8U-2NE) and impressive #11093 F8U-3 Crusader III

- # 10156 A-7A Corsair II
- # 10232 A-37B Dragonfly (fueling probe was one of the additions in the B variant)
- # 10260 GA/1 Jaguar (SEPECAT Jaguar)
ED. Also have added the Jaguar M - planned French navy version, with anticipated order of 60 aircraft to replace
Etendard. Prototyped but order cancelled largely due to program cost.


- # 10276 S-3B Viking ASW
ED. Also have added the first production unit: S-3A Viking. Changes to S-3B IOC greatly delay this aircraft's availability -
IIRC, mdb IOC date is really closer to S-3A as currently available in SR-CW.


- # 11123 MiG-29K Fulcrum Naval (was built off the '29M, which was the first to include a probe as standard gear)
- # 11126 MiG-29M Fulcrum-M

- # 12156 B-52B Stratofortress (All B-52 variants were capable of in flight refueling)
- # 12157 B-52D Stratofortress
- # 12171 B-52G Stratofortress
ED. ALL B-52s were reviewed and data changes made earlier, as necessary, prior to Update 3 but probably not in update - including new aircraft versions.

- # 12175 Tu-22 Blinder *maybe: Probes added to new craft, retrofitted to existing starting in 1965, couple years after first entered service
ED. Another of the aircraft reviewed earlier and updated, along with new versions for game - but unlikely in Update 3.

- # 13907 EA-6B Prowler
- # 12178 A-5A Vigilante
- # 12223 A-3B Skywarrior
ED. Updated with some changed data. Also added A-3A Skywarrior for game.

Also, "early" unit pricing in some categories seems a bit out of whack. >= WW2, into ~1960ish in the Recon, AA & AT categories, as well as early(ish) small transport ships, which seem very expensive relative to other transports & combat vessels based on tonnage.

ED. Review of Cost and production time (Days) is being done on several Cat 3 (AT) types.
As noted elsewhere by BG, Cost data changes with availability of resources and a escalation Cost factor used after original IOC.
Not sure of some of the data you entered below but have quantities of both historical air and naval costs that have been factored into SR. SR monetary system did require some changes from historical, but does attempt to attain a certain balance between Category types.


I don't have the unit #s & exact costs ATM, will edit a few exact examples later, but generally across the board in that timeframe. A 3-8 ton WW2 era armored car costs several times as much as a 35 ton WW2 tank of same era/nationality (eg BA-64 vs T-34/85, M8 & M4 Sherman), A WW2 20mm AA gun costing several times what a tank does, ditto the AT Guns, several times as much as tank mounting the same gun, and perhaps 10 times the price of a much larger caliber howitzer. In the later "early" years, the ZSU-57-2 is several times the price of a comparable year T-55. Once it gets into the 60s, the prices fall more in line as those previously cheaper systems' price tags begin to rapidly increase.

Obviously getting exact prices of each system in date of entry fiscal dollars is fantasy at best, only speaking of relative disparity here.

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Re: Unit Errata

#327 Post by geminif4ucorsair » Jan 10 2013

barkhauer wrote:USA: The A-3B Skywarrior (unit ID 12223) has the model/mesh of the AD-3 Skyraider, ie, single-engine, propeller, low-wing monoplane. It should be a twin-engine jet, instead.
The same also applies to the A3D-2Q Skywarrior ELINT, unit ID 13100.
The same also applies to the EKA-3B Skywarrior ELINT, unit ID 13122.
Changed for all three current version and added to new entry: A-3D-1 (A-3A) Skywarrior...thanks for noting.

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Re: Unit Errata - French Foreign Legion

#328 Post by geminif4ucorsair » Jan 10 2013

number47 wrote:
geminif4ucorsair wrote:Not so ethnocentric....GC was trying to create a pattern of Western (and Soviet) infantry designs for the "Cold War" theme.....and,
"foreign legion" - which several countries (Spain, etc.) had comparable units, is one of those results. I know, brings tears to the eyes of Frenchmen everywhere.... :-)
Ok, I'm not French but I still wonder, shouldn't that unit at least be buildable by French (the unit is not buildable by F region as you may see)? :D
Or was it intentionally decided not to represent French Foreign Legion in the game?
NO, it was not intentional on my part in the original work-up. As it happened, the original "foreign legion" infantry bn. was French based. There was also a unit based more on the Spanish Foreign Legion.
Along the way, George C. re-shapped the title and it became a generic unit "Foreign Legion".

If you feel slighted, don't be. Happened to several Soviet/Russian, North Korean elite and the Chinese PLA units failed to be included.

[Ask BG is you want to get a true "French" foreign legion unit !!]

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Re: Unit Errata

#329 Post by bvb » Jan 10 2013

FWIW, when I mentioned prices I meant the unit file itself ;) I finally put together a few specific examples, but it is pretty much a class wide issue of nearly all AT, recon, & many AA units from preWW2 tech up to ~1960.

#1024 M8 Greyhound $1.02m
#1048 BA-11 $1m
1142 BA-64 $1m

2124 M4A3 Sherman $0.18m
2171 M4A3E8 76mm $0.215
2143 T-34 $0.18m
2154 T-34/85 $0.195m
2181 IS-3 heavy tank $0.24m

3030 M10/A1 3" TD $0.58m
3242 SU-100 $0.7m
3112 ZIS-3 76mm ATG $0.4m
3240 & 3241 M18 Hellcat, M36 Jackson both $1m

So currently an 8 ton M8 Greyhound costs 6 times as much as 32 ton M4 Sherman. An M10 tank destroyer nearly 3 times that of a 76mm armed Sherman. A ZIS-3 towed 76mm AT gun costs ~4 times more than a T-34 tank. Historically, M8 cost a fraction of the Sherman (~1/3 IIRC, would have to do some book digging), an M10 TD was marginally less expensive than the Sherman (~20% cheaper than the M4A3 (75mm) ).

Just one specific from the transports, but again this disparity exists with many of the earlier transport vessels:

20303 LST-511 $40m This is ~4 times the price of a Fletcher class destroyer (17126, $11.2m) which displaces nearly 50% more than the LST, has much more expensive machinery, armament, complex hull form, etc. Even something like 17728, Baltimore class heavy cruiser weighing in at 13,600 tons to the LSTs ~1,600,is much cheaper at $26.3M.

If the seemingly odd prices are strictly for in-game balance, so be it. That as time goes on and the positions reverse I assumed that wasn't so of course. Eg into the '60s a BRDM-2 recon unit costs ~40-50% instead of 500% of a comparable year MBT, an AT-3 Sagger ATGM team ~1/10th the price of a T-62 or T-64, etc. Much more believable prices of the various units relative to one another as the years go on.

Regardless, thanks for looking into & expanding the unit files. As of update 3 we only ( :evil: ) have ~4,500 units, so of course we still demand more. :D
Last edited by bvb on Jan 10 2013, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Unit Errata - French Foreign Legion

#330 Post by number47 » Jan 10 2013

geminif4ucorsair wrote:NO, it was not intentional on my part in the original work-up. As it happened, the original "foreign legion" infantry bn. was French based. There was also a unit based more on the Spanish Foreign Legion.
Along the way, George C. re-shapped the title and it became a generic unit "Foreign Legion".

If you feel slighted, don't be. Happened to several Soviet/Russian, North Korean elite and the Chinese PLA units failed to be included.

[Ask BG is you want to get a true "French" foreign legion unit !!]
Understood.

I just wanted to point out that UnitID 177 "Foreign Legion - Mounted" is buildable/researchable only by following regions U (United States), S (Sweden, Swiss, Denmark, Norway) and E (Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Turkey, Greece).

My "nagging" was directed to check if absence of France in that list is intentional or not. Now that I know it is intentional I have no problem with this unit. :D

EDIT: also, I sent you a PM some time ago, and I would really appreciate if you could help me with the issue presented in it :wink:
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