Proper Unit Variants and Timeline Mod, or PUVT Mod

[stuguy909]

ANNOUNCEMENTS:
AUGUST 10: Still no update
I haven't posted in a while, but this project isn't dead. I already have a list of stuff I am going to work on if the unit requirement bug gets fixed and all the missing units work properly. Just waiting for the patch...

AUGUST 1: Still no update
I haven't done any news updates in the last few days. 7.1.1 just came out, but the units are still jacked somewhat. There is a bug that prevents any unit with a unit prerequisite (for obsolete unit purposes) to not show up in the game. 722 units are not available in game, but in the game's files, because of the bug. It would be pointless to create a mod that supports this unit replacement system only for it to not even work. Stay tuned for more information.

JULY 28: Waiting
I am still waiting for a good overhaul to the unit tree that Balthagor said would come in a new update. As of right now, I am accepting volunteers to help out with the project. It would be nice to have Russian volunteers work with me on the USSR gear, Germans on the German stuff, Brits on the Brit stuff, you get the hint. Dividing the work load will make this go a lot quicker when a solid update is put out to work on.

JULY 27: DO NOT SUBMIT CHANGES OR UPDATES UNTIL VERSION 7.0.71 IS PATCHED
I will be collecting recommendations, and discussing changes until the update is made. Balthagor went through the entire tech tree and made revisions. I am waiting to see what he did before I begin modding.

DISCLAIMER: Battlegoat Studios and Paradox Interactive own all rights and privileges to Supreme Ruler Cold War and this forum. As such, any modifcations done to its game and posted here are property of Battlegoat, and subject to its discretion. You may not sell any updates. Please refrain from posting core game files on public file servers. BG can host the mod and provide links that require logins to Paradoxinteractive and ownership of the game.

ABOUT:
Proper Unit Variants and Timeline Mod, or PUVT Mod, is a community driven update that tries to accuratly reflect the performance capabilities of all the units in Supreme Ruler Cold War, and provide an accurate depiction of the unit variants assigned with those models, as well as an accurate timeline and tech requirement to construct any given unit. The Goal of this mod will ultimately provide more construction options and decision making when outfitting ones Army, as well as provide realistic balancing and accurate unit performance.

DETAILS:
The developers of SRCW are very busy patching the game. It is best that they can concentrate on core game mechanics, and provide the users with new features, rather than spend the countless hours retooling a game for the community that can simply balance the game how they want to for themselves. This is an open forum, however, there are restrictions in how to present details and make adjustments to the unit files. Remember to be professional, curtious, provide accurate information, and follow the forum rules. With any luck, we can produce a great mod that will become part of the core game itself.

WISH LIST:
With the work done here, it is my hope that the additional variants and research requirements for unit upgrades gives more incentive for the developers to create a unit upgrade system. This has been discussed before, and is on their wishlist. By helping out with updating the units ourselves, they may have more time to do just that.

Rules for forumers:
Be sure to check for updates in this post. I will update the release and provide news above here.

DISCUSSION / ELABORATION: I have a feeling that general discussion and arguing will take place here. To prevent this, I will provide links to the general discussion threads that are available for particular criteria we may be addressing. Try to keep this thread related to work on the Mod. Some details and discussion is necessary. But please remember to go into detail in another thread, or make use of the PM.

USEFUL THREADS:
Jets: http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 38#p123038
Tanks: http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 02#p122902
Carriers: http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 61&t=17252
Infantry: http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 61&t=18016

If you don't wish to help out with editing, feel free to provide input, research, or intelligent speculation to help make the re-balancing better for all.

DO NOT ASK FOR UPDATES IN THE THREAD. If you are helping out, send me a PM and kindly ask for the newest working revision if you need it for some reason.

DO NOT ASK FOR THE STATUS. This is a community mod / update. Don't waste your time asking volunteers when they will get around to updating game information you can easily update yourself.

NO COMPLAINING. Those involved in this project want to make the game more enjoyable. Negativity is not welcome here.

Rules for modders:
If you wish to help, simply post your intentions in this thread following this criteria:
1) Announce the Country you wish to modify (IE: USA)
2) Announce the Unit Type (IE: Infantry)
3) Announce the Series of unit (IE: M113 series)
4) Propose the changes to be made, provide research data to prove your point.
5) We discuss it, if necessary.
6) Submit updated unit files or text from the file in the thread.
7) I will compile the information as we go along and post the completed updates myself, or appoint an assistant.

Latest Version:
unavailable: waiting for post 7.0.71 patch

Update Notes:
none yet

Update Series:
The initial native release will be 1.00_00. Every unit modified will increase the _00 by +1, thus _01 with a _xx cap of 50. Roughly every 50 alterations to the unit files will increase the mod revision by .01 and cycle the _xx back to _00. Thus, roughly 234 alterations would make the mod version 1.04_34. The update will be fairly accurate in proximity. This will become a guide as to just how many changes at a glance have been made to the unit files.

[stuguy909]

I am going to work on:

Japan
Tactical Bomber
AT-4CV

I could find no data on this jet, or any data on its existence in the Japanese Defense Force. This unit is somewhat decent as a TB Fighter, the Air-Air attack power sucks but the range is a monstrous 96km! I want to replace this unit with the F-1.

Japan
Tactical Bomber
F-1

The F-1 appears too late in the game. IMO, it should be available where the AT-4CV is. There were only 77 F-1's produced, and there aren't too many variants that I am aware of. It was quickly replaced by the F-4E. The F-1 was the first fighter produced in Japan after WW2. It began production in the mid 1970's. The only reason it took so long for Japan to produce military hardware was because the US occupiers held them back for so long. In game, this is irrelevant. I say, allow Japan to build it. If it is available in the early 1950's, it would be very helpful.


Japan
Multi-Role
F-2A&C

I was unaware that there was an A and C model of the F-2. The design was proposed in the early 1990's. The F-2 is basically a redesigned and much larger F-16 with the latest technology, minus stealth. It was intended to be a cheaper alternative to the F-15J Kai. The F-2 was delivered starting around the year 2000 and should be nearing completion. The C model, in game, is available when the F-1 is research-able. However, the F-1 is made completely useless because the F-2C is way better. I propose that the F-2C be deleted, and just keep the F-2A, which comes later on, and has relatively decent stats. I am for upgrading the Air-to-Air attack, as it is a little weak for a Jet capable of firing missiles from the year 2000. This way, Japan must use the F-4EJ for some time.

Japan
Interceptor
F-4 Phantom II
Japan should be allowed to build this model. It should be a pre-requisite for Japan to build the F-4EJ Phantom II, the RF-4EJ and the Kai variants of both.

Japan
Multi-Role
F-4E Phantom II
Japan should not be allowed to build the E model. Instead, it should build the Japanese model of the F-4EJ Phantom II. This plane is set to World Wide, perhaps it should be set to USA.

Japan
Multi-Role
F-4EJ Phantom II
This should be Japan's proper variant for the F-4E. It should be slightly inferior to the American F-4E. However, I want to retool the F-4E, because it is too weak in the Air to Air department. This is not a CTOL air craft. This has no aerial refuel. This must be the pre-requisite for the Kai model.

Japan
F-4EJ Kai
Multi-role
The modified variant of the F-4EJ. This should be better than the F-4E, be CTOL, and Aerial refuel added for game balancing.

Japan
Patrol/AWACS
RF-4E Phantom II
Japan should not be allowed to build this model. The plane is set to Worldwide. Perhaps it should be changed to USA.

Japan
Patrol/AWACS
RF-4EJ Phantom II
The Japanese variant of the RF-4E. Should be inferior to the RF-4E, have NO CTOL, NO Mid-Air refuel, and the pre-requisite for the RF-4EJ Kai.

Japan
Patrol/AWACS
RF-4EJ Kai
The Japanese upgraded variant of the Recon model. Should be better than the RF-4E, be CTOL, and have aerial refuel.

[stephen]

West Germany
Tank
Tiger II tank

Must have bigger hard attack and defence than a Panther Ausf D
Tiger II has a 88mm main gun compared to the 75mm of Panther, and also much stronger armor

[stuguy909]

West Germany
Tank
Tiger II tank

Must have bigger hard attack and defence than a Panther Ausf D
Tiger II has a 88mm main gun compared to the 75mm of Panther, and also much stronger armor

I think the Tiger II was too over powered actually. It had 31 hard attack. The American M26 Pershing has a 90mm gun and 28 hard attack. In fact, the Tiger II is very effective as is. I was so impressed at how much capability it was given, that as any Western nation other than the West Germans, I prefer to purchase the design and crank out hundreds of them until I can research a much more superior tank. Even the 120mm gun on the M103 Conqueror has only 30 attack. If anything, the Tiger II needs to be nerfed.

:EDIT: The Panther Ausf D should be nerfed tremendously. The Tiger II was designed to defeat the Soviet T-34/85, so the Tiger II should be slightly better than that. However, the Soviet IS-6 was designed to beat the Tiger II, so the Tiger II cannot be better than the IS-6. Note that the T-54 has a 100mm gun, but the devs gave it a 20 hard attack...

[Chesehead]

I'm glad to see something of this and will help out with research and values, but someone else will have to mod it for me since i don't know much about modding.

If its ok, I'd like to go through the US nuke aresinal and give them proper nukes. I'll probably start on this after sunday. I'd just like to know how much damage you think 1 kiliton should have and if I get ambitious, i might try and model dirty weapons through a higher attack.

[stuguy909]

I'm glad to see something of this and will help out with research and values, but someone else will have to mod it for me since i don't know much about modding.

If its ok, I'd like to go through the US nuke aresinal and give them proper nukes. I'll probably start on this after sunday. I'd just like to know how much damage you think 1 kiliton should have and if I get ambitious, i might try and model dirty weapons through a higher attack.

not really sure about nukes. I have played SR for a long time, but believe it or not, I have never been a big user of nukes. I do know how to mod units, countries, techs, and what not. If you feel that the nukes need to be properly balanced, then feel free to recommend variables. I do know that the early A-bombs shouldn't be able to kill off T-55's. The T-55 was actually designed to withstand a low yield nuclear blast, assuming it wasn't within ground zero, of course.

[Chesehead]

I'm glad to see something of this and will help out with research and values, but someone else will have to mod it for me since i don't know much about modding.

If its ok, I'd like to go through the US nuke aresinal and give them proper nukes. I'll probably start on this after sunday. I'd just like to know how much damage you think 1 kiliton should have and if I get ambitious, i might try and model dirty weapons through a higher attack.

not really sure about nukes. I have played SR for a long time, but believe it or not, I have never been a big user of nukes. I do know how to mod units, countries, techs, and what not. If you feel that the nukes need to be properly balanced, then feel free to recommend variables. I do know that the early A-bombs shouldn't be able to kill off T-55's. The T-55 was actually designed to withstand a low yield nuclear blast, assuming it wasn't within ground zero, of course.

Yeah tac nukes aren't that powerfull and would be more useful against soft targets. I probably won't mess around with that too much since most RL US tac nukes were 155 artillary shells. I do however want to give the Iowa's their 16 in nuke shell.

As for damage, i'm thinking that 10 megs will destroy medium and smaller cities, so what ever damage number that takes will be the higher end of the scale. I can nerf the soft ans hard attacks on it a bit if needed. Frankly, it will give the user more options for nuke bombs, and add some more filler techs, since i think you'll have to research a primary before you can research the weapon. Primaries are something that some weapons have in common and it would be a rather cheap 120 day thing maybe.

Also looking to make certain bomb requirements for missile warheads and missile warheads a reqirement for missiles.

I'm still trying to think of a way to model the huge advantage the US had in miniturization of nukes as well.

Also, it would be nice to see more fortification techs that would allow for cities to better withstand small nukes. Same for military complexs.

After all, its the cold war and nukes played a huge role.

[Chesehead]

Ok, so i've done research. I plan on complicating things a bit more and making it harder to research nuclear weapons. I.E, there are a common primaries in weapons that will be needed for a certain amount of weapons.
So, in order to get a warhead for say the Peacekeeper missile, you would have to research a common primary that is good for multiple weapons, then the bomb (if applicable) it's based off, have the right tech for silo weapons, and also have a tech for the re-entry vechile itself. The filler techs added will probably only be in the 120-200 day range and wouldn't be extremely expensive.

Couple questions again, still haven't gotten a response on city health.
Can we have weapons that have effects across more then one hex? I.E I want to make the Czar bomba. The clean version was 50 megs, and the fire ball on that was alone 16 miles. The dirty version was 100 megs. They could easily destroy a hex and do significant damage to agacent hexes. Otherwise, it's pointless to have bombs of more then 10 megs. (unless techs increase facility defense later on)
If possible, I think Silo's should probably have higher defesenses, as they were desighned to be nuked, and thus could survive a certain amount of damage before being destoryed. After all, a 100 kt weapon can destroy a military hex, and that should in no way destroy a silo.

I also want to throw in nuclear ASW weapons as well (+ torps), so if anyone has any ball park figures they want to suggest, fire away. The russians have a super-cavitating torp that I think can be modded in with a 200 kt warhead and i would like to include this.

I have some more thoughts on this, but forgot them atm. Will post when I remeder. I also plan on starting putting down some info to be modded tonight as well.
I plan on starting with the US and then off to russia. Info there is a bit sparse, so they won't be as complicated, since less info about their warheads are available, and the fact that they abondonded large, air dropped nuclear weapons early on.

[stuguy909]

I'm not so concerned about the game mechanics on the nukes. Considering that I rarely use them myself. The general idea with the nukes is that the cities lose lots of population, and the military units get blown up or damaged. If this is accomplished, I wouldn't spend hours upon end making too many changes to the nukes. If you feel the damage variables are unrealistic, or should be re-balanced, that is different. Changing unit statistics, names, or adding new units is more along the lines of what is being done in this mod. I am not so concerned about making the game more complicated.

I just want to see all of the more popular units get more variants so we can research more units while in between eras. Also update older designs to keep up with the next generation models. For example, there are some instances where the T-55 has been outfitted with Electronic fire control systems, night vision, gyroscopic stabilizers, reactive armor, and can use depleted uranium rounds. Though a heavily modified T-55 wouldn't be nearly as good as a modified T-72 or T-80, I just want to future possibility of the older tanks being upgraded and exported to allied nations, or upgraded and kept in the players poor nation as a cheaper alternative to newer designs.

So in conclusion, if you want to add or modify a missile, then discuss what modifications or additions to the missile you want to conduct. We shouldn't have to modify city health at this time. Not until, at least, it becomes apparent that city health is breaking the balancing for some reason.

[Chesehead]

I'm not so concerned about the game mechanics on the nukes. Considering that I rarely use them myself. The general idea with the nukes is that the cities lose lots of population, and the military units get blown up or damaged. If this is accomplished, I wouldn't spend hours upon end making too many changes to the nukes. If you feel the damage variables are unrealistic, or should be re-balanced, that is different. Changing unit statistics, names, or adding new units is more along the lines of what is being done in this mod. I am not so concerned about making the game more complicated.

I just want to see all of the more popular units get more variants so we can research more units while in between eras. Also update older designs to keep up with the next generation models. For example, there are some instances where the T-55 has been outfitted with Electronic fire control systems, night vision, gyroscopic stabilizers, reactive armor, and can use depleted uranium rounds. Though a heavily modified T-55 wouldn't be nearly as good as a modified T-72 or T-80, I just want to future possibility of the older tanks being upgraded and exported to allied nations, or upgraded and kept in the players poor nation as a cheaper alternative to newer designs.

So in conclusion, if you want to add or modify a missile, then discuss what modifications or additions to the missile you want to conduct. We shouldn't have to modify city health at this time. Not until, at least, it becomes apparent that city health is breaking the balancing for some reason.

Your probably right. I played around with nuke damage tonight, so I have some spitball numbers for weapon power vs. destruction. Ideally, a 10 Meg shot will destroy a Mega city, which is what I am aiming for. I think the damage neede for that is around 13K demo stat. I will lower all the rest, so 3K will probably be the demo for a 10Kt weapon. I'll provide more detailed damage+techs tomorrow. I'm shooting for the large bombs have a rather limited effect against tactical targets and require a ton of uranium, which makes them suited for demo work, while the smaller tac nukes are better against units, but lack demo fire-power. I also figured out how to put enhanced radation weapons as well, though those won't be around till later.

I also get what your trying to do with the desighns as well.

[stuguy909]

Yea, as soon as the devs fix the unit progression, I will be fixing the numbers and adding variants to make the game more interesting while waiting in between those long research periods. I would like to see the differences between your nukes and the regular ones. You have fraps?

[Chesehead]

Fraps?

The big diffrence with mine is that I'm added more unit types and bigger ones. I'm also messing with the tech tree for them so it takes a bit longer to get 2nd gen weapons and so forth. And missiles for that matter.

I also might make some smaller weapons more powerful later on to account for advances in accuracy and MIRV capability.

[Chesehead]

So I looked a bit at the tech tree... I think it'd be more realistic like this..

So replace the nuclear weapons technology/research with nuclear weapons desighn theories. It should last between 120-150 days and cost 3 billion.
After this, it should split into two techs.

Gun type theory.. Should take 80-100 days and cost 1 billion. This unlocks a gun type nuclear weapons test. This should take between 80-100 days and cost 500 Million. Finally, it will unlock gun type weapons production. This process should take 120-150 days and cost 750 million. After that, it will yeild certain weapons from the US and some generic ones. The point of this tech is to provide nukes faster, however, their pretty small, and still large.. Their fast, 1st Gen weapons that also require less uranium.

The other option is Implossion. This will lead to all the rest of the bombs. Starts with Implossions weapons theory. This should take 180-200 days and cost 3 billion. After that, you should have the Implossio weapons test, which should take 120-150 days and cost 1 billion. After that, you have Implossion weapons production. This should take 180-200 days and cost 2 billion, after which you can produce implossion nukes.
After all that, the first improvement is levitated pits, which is a 40-50 day tech and costs 100 million. Nesissary for the next steps.

Thats all for tonight.. More tomorrow hopefully.. I hope someone can mod this, as I have no modding talents and don't have the time/patience.