Unit stats questions (combat time, ammo capacity and others)

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Unit stats questions (combat time, ammo capacity and others)

Post by MK4 »

I`m not sure I understand what columns AJ (combat time; # of hours before out of ammo) and AK (ammo capacity in tons per squad) from DEFAULT.UNIT really stand for in game.

For example I see that the F-16A Falcon, F-16 ADF Falcon (interceptor class), the F-16C Falcon (fighter bomber class) and F-16C Falcon Block 60 (multirole fighter) have an ammo capacity of 9.3 which is considerably higher than what the majority of units from the classes fighter-interceptor, fighter-bomber and multirole fighter have.
To put things into perspective, the B-52H Stratofortress which is a strategic bomber has 33 and the JAS-39 Gripen and JAS-39 Attack Gripen have 1.12! That would mean that the F-16 carries more than 8 times the payload of the Gripen if I read this correctly. Is this right?

As far as combat time goes, the F-16A Falcon, F-16 ADF Falcon and F-16C Falcon Block 60 have the value of 19.787. That`s way higher than almost any other unit in all the fighter classes. The F-16C Falcon has only 10. An F/A-18F Super Hornet only has a value of 12. The Gripen has 16. The Eurofighter has 7. Could someone please explain to me why an Eurofighter would run out of ammo in 7 hours and an F-16 in almost 20?

Are the combat time and ammo capacity dependent on one another? Are they influenced by other values? I`d appreciated if someone could help me make better sense of the values from these two columns. Thank you!
Last edited by MK4 on Nov 25 2013, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unit stats questions (combat time and ammo capacity)

Post by Fistalis »

Ammocapacity is the maximum payload in tons. Note that this has to account for maximum fueling as well. For example the listed payload for an F-16 is like 15 klbs but thats including fuel.. reducing this number for the fuel should bring you to around what its set at.

Combat time is how long a unit can consistently continue firing in game hours before it uses all its payload. Neither stat is reliant on the other. Because some weapons systems may be able to fire multiple types of ammunition at the same time going through its payload at a faster rate. Or for another example bombers which can drop their entire payload in a relatively small time frame.

and yes generally speaking the F-16 has an astronomical payload in comparison to similar planes of the era.
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Re: Unit stats questions (combat time and ammo capacity)

Post by Balthagor »

Correction to what Fistalis said, Fuel has no relation to these values.

I'd have to research the aircraft in question to see if we have it correct, but in essence, MK4 you have understood the system. Rate of supply use will be max ammo divide by max combat time. The biggest challenge is always balancing combat time and damage values to the max capacity value.
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Re: Unit stats questions (combat time and ammo capacity)

Post by Fistalis »

Not in game but fuel should have been figured in for the initial stat since real world payloads are fuel + arms. In game its pujrely arms.

Edit: Okay now that I'm home I can clarify. That is to say lets say unit X has a maximum payload of 10 tons. That payload is Fuel and arms. Where as in game the payload Is only weapons. So one would THINK that if unit X at maximum fuel capacity carries 5 tons of fuel then the AMMO payload aka ammo capacity would only be 5 tons. Whether or not you guys did that when setting the initial stats Is another question. I never meant to imply that fuel had any direct bearing on these stats in game . Only that it likely was used in the calculation of the stats themselves. A great example is the F-16 itself since its maximum rated payload can only be achieved with less than full internal fuel. Which means the maximum Payload should be LESS than the reported specs since in game it is always fully fueled.

Of course.. you could have ignored the variations in payload reporting and just typed in the stats as they are printed..in which case I need to go back and fix them :lol:
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Re: Unit stats questions (combat time and ammo capacity)

Post by Balthagor »

Fistalis wrote:...Of course.. you could have ignored the variations in payload reporting and just typed in the stats as they are printed..in which case I need to go back and fix them :lol:
That is quite possible, it's been a while but I don't remember having a discussion on this issue.
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Re: Unit stats questions (combat time and ammo capacity)

Post by Fistalis »

Balthagor wrote:
Fistalis wrote:...Of course.. you could have ignored the variations in payload reporting and just typed in the stats as they are printed..in which case I need to go back and fix them :lol:
That is quite possible, it's been a while but I don't remember having a discussion on this issue.
While I'm playing with math.. I forget is tons in game long, short or metric? Edit: Nvm everything is metric. :wink:
And ya it would seem thats what you did. Since Using the F-16a as an example.
Maximum take off weight- Empty weight- Maximum internal Fuel weight = Maximum munitions payload. Should be 5.8ish tons, In game its set to 9.2 (which is the Theoretic maximum payload but would put the aircraft slightly over its MTOW and since it would have NO fuel with that much munitions it wouldn't get far lol)

But um.. didn't mean to derail the thread [_]O

Back on topic.. combat time seems crazy when you consider that most fighter aircraft can unleash their entire payload in a matter of minutes or seconds. But that was probably a game "fun" balance thing.
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Re: Unit stats questions (combat time and ammo capacity)

Post by MK4 »

Alright, things are starting to make sense for me as to why they are the way they are in game. Thank you both for the replies!
Maximum take off weight- Empty weight- Maximum internal Fuel weight = Maximum munitions payload. Should be 5.8ish tons, In game its set to 9.2 (which is the Theoretic maximum payload but would put the aircraft slightly over its MTOW and since it would have NO fuel with that much munitions it wouldn't get far lol)
I was just about to post my own math subtracting the internal fuel value of 7,000 pounds (3,175 kilograms) from the 15 klbs you mentioned and not arriving at the 9.3 tons ammo capacity from the game. :D I thought my brain being used to the metric system is failing some calculation. :D
http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/FactSheets/Di ... alcon.aspx

Ok, so the conclusion here is that in some cases BG could have used the payload value from real technical stats to mean just ammo and then also added the maximum fuel capacity separately arriving at a considerable higher total value than would work in reality. Am I correct?
Neither stat is reliant on the other.
That would mean that a fighter might exhaust its ammo capacity before its combat time expires in which case it would still need to go back to ressuply despite still having combat hours to go. Or, alternatively, that its combat time would expire before the ammo capacity is exhausted. What happens in the latter case? Will it go to resupply too?

Also, two more questions:

1. What is the relation between the ammo capacity, combat time and initiative (column J)? The initiative reflects how fast the unit is reacting and firing as I understand it. Does this firing faster means it is consuming its ammo faster and that its combat time is reduced or is initiative completely independent?
2. If I understand correctly, the missile units` weight is substracted from the weight of the ammo capacity that the carrying unit has. So, does it mean that a multirole fighter might not have any ammo capacity left after it is loaded with missiles? If so, does it mean it would not be able to fire back if attacked by other fighters (air to air combat basically)?
Balthagor wrote:Rate of supply use will be max ammo divide by max combat time.
Could you tell me how you came up with the combat time for various units? What the general rule was I mean. I`m presuming that it`s more of a conventional in game value and not something taken litterally from the real life specifications of the equipment because, as was implied above, an F-16 would not use its ammo(bombs missile and cannon) constantly for 19 hours. I guess the combat time (that means ammo usage, not fuel) is more appropriate to land units than it is to air units, but for the sake of gameplay, how would one determine the combat time of an F-16 for example?
The biggest challenge is always balancing combat time and damage values to the max capacity value.
Do you have a formula for that? :D
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Re: Unit stats questions (combat time and ammo capacity)

Post by Balthagor »

Combat Time standardization is something we're still working on. We usually set it for what we thought gave the best balance in game based on play testing and feedback.
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Re: Unit stats questions (combat time and ammo capacity)

Post by mattpilot »

Fistalis wrote:While I'm playing with math.. I forget is tons in game long, short or metric? Edit: Nvm everything is metric. :wink:
And ya it would seem thats what you did. Since Using the F-16a as an example.
Maximum take off weight- Empty weight- Maximum internal Fuel weight = Maximum munitions payload. Should be 5.8ish tons, In game its set to 9.2 (which is the Theoretic maximum payload but would put the aircraft slightly over its MTOW and since it would have NO fuel with that much munitions it wouldn't get far lol)

Is this seriously how game statistics are made up, or this just some kind of post in jest?

If this is how the game is 'balanced', it explains sooooooooo much. Yet, there are not enough hands in this world to perform a simultaneous facepalm to describe how i feel about this type of 'game balance'.
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Re: Unit stats questions (combat time and ammo capacity)

Post by MK4 »

I want to say that I`ve started the thread just so I have a better understanding of why some things are the way they are. It`s important if one wants to add a new unit for example. It was not my intention to criticize anything.
Balthagor wrote:Combat Time standardization is something we're still working on. We usually set it for what we thought gave the best balance in game based on play testing and feedback.
Thanks! So, in this regard, it`s basically whatever seems to work best in game based on play experience.
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Re: Unit stats questions (combat time and ammo capacity)

Post by Balthagor »

mattpilot wrote:Is this seriously how game statistics are made up, or this just some kind of post in jest?

If this is how the game is 'balanced', it explains sooooooooo much. Yet, there are not enough hands in this world to perform a simultaneous facepalm to describe how i feel about this type of 'game balance'.
Game statistics such as "attack values" are certainly made up, and we do as much as we can to research the real values, but once we get a balance on a few units we will extrapolate those values that we can't find through research. There's not much other choice.
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Re: Unit stats questions (combat time and ammo capacity)

Post by Fistalis »

MK4 wrote: Ok, so the conclusion here is that in some cases BG could have used the payload value from real technical stats to mean just ammo and then also added the maximum fuel capacity separately arriving at a considerable higher total value than would work in reality. Am I correct?

D
Yes although I'd place the blame on the hodge podge of specs we the general public receive from governments and manufacturers. With thousands of units in game you can't blame BG for not doing their own math for every one. Many are likely correct and others aren't. I specifically chose the F-16 to check because its a common error people make when looking at its maximum payload.

There are issues with doing it my way as well.. for example the B52H is incapable of taking off with its full fuel load. The maximum it can carry puts it over its MTOW. (Its not unusual for U.S. aircraft to take off light then fuel up once in the air via midair refueling)

I would need to decide on a specific fuel load before doing the math. Just shows you how messed up spec reporting is :wink:

(which in case you're curious.. with the fuel load BG has the B-52H in game at that would leave 2.2 tons for munitions.. lol)

As much as I would love to see variable loading of fuel to gain more or less range..a long with variable loading of munitions of the remaining space.. thats something that BG would never do. (might be too complex for their target audience.. of which I am NOT a member of :P )

But yes generally some stats are fudged. For example the B-52H couldn't carry much if it was carrying the amount of fuel it needs for the range it has in game. But what should they do? Half the range to give it the payload people would expect from it? The engine wasn't created with my OCD in mind. :D
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Re: Unit stats questions (combat time and ammo capacity)

Post by MK4 »

I wasn`t blaming anyone. This isn`t meant as a complaint thread. As I`ve said, I was trying to understand the logic that was applied so that I know how to add a unit or modify another without creating some side-effect. Some of the details are also important to know strictly for gameplay as they`re influencing one`s in game acquisition of units.

Ok, so how about these:

1. What is the relation between the ammo capacity, combat time and initiative (column J)? The initiative reflects how fast the unit is reacting and firing as I understand it. Does this firing faster means it is consuming its ammo faster and that its combat time is reduced or is initiative completely independent?
2. If I understand correctly, the missile units` weight is subtracted from the weight of the ammo capacity that the carrying unit has. So, does it mean that a multirole fighter might not have any ammo capacity left after it is fully loaded with missile units depending on how those weight?
3. And, again, do I understand correctly that ammo capacity is not tied to the combat time and fuel capacity is not tied to movement range in game in the sense that the former decrease proportionally to the latter?
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Re: Unit stats questions (combat time and ammo capacity)

Post by Fistalis »

MK4 wrote:I wasn`t blaming anyone. This isn`t meant as a complaint thread. As I`ve said, I was trying to understand the logic that was applied so that I know how to add a unit or modify another without creating some side-effect. Some of the details are also important to know strictly for gameplay as they`re influencing one`s in game acquisition of units.

Ok, so how about these:

1. What is the relation between the ammo capacity, combat time and initiative (column J)? The initiative reflects how fast the unit is reacting and firing as I understand it. Does this firing faster means it is consuming its ammo faster and that its combat time is reduced or is initiative completely independent?
2. If I understand correctly, the missile units` weight is subtracted from the weight of the ammo capacity that the carrying unit has. So, does it mean that a multirole fighter might not have any ammo capacity left after it is fully loaded with missile units depending on how those weight?
3. And, again, do I understand correctly that ammo capacity is not tied to the combat time and fuel capacity is not tied to movement range in game in the sense that the former decrease proportionally to the latter?
1. Combat time is a set stat. Faster initiative will not make it go lower. Using the below example think of these 3 stats relation as Battle efficiency. How long (combat time) it can continually fire at its fastest rate (initiative) before it runs out of ammo if it starts with a full load(ammo capacity)
2. Yes
3. Correct. Each stat is independent. Giving a unit a higher fuel reserve but keeping its maximum movement range will simply mean it uses more fuel to go the same distance. Think of the relation of these 2 stats as fuel efficiency. IE how many kms(range) it gets on a full tank(fuel capacity).
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Re: Unit stats questions (combat time and ammo capacity)

Post by MK4 »

Thank you very much! Well put about the battle/fuel efficiency. Basically, the smaller the ammo/fuel capacity, the better.
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