Loyalty in conquered regions.

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tkobo
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Re: Loyalty in conquered regions.

Post by tkobo »

Well, we know the game can merge regions thru an election,so the ground work is at least there.
Been a while since i played a re-unification game,what happens to loyalties in such ?
This post approved by Tkobo:Official Rabble Rouser of the United Yahoos
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Ryondo
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Re: Loyalty in conquered regions.

Post by Ryondo »

just got into the game... loyalty should deffinately change. I conquered zimbabwe in the african dragon sceanario then lesotho and finally that other lacd locked country that i cant remember right now. It seems kind of pointless and unrealistic for a fallen land locked country to stay loyal to itself. the immigration into that area from the sourrounding places would eventually change the loyalty of that area. somone should make a mod if people are going to keep complaining about it so much or an option should be added to the game that you can select or deselect on whehter loyalty changes or not that way everyone can be happy

Edit: plus i forgot that i have no line of sight in the countries i conquer. THe only way i can see in those countries is if i have military units all over the country. Maybe there some way to change this and its not cause the loyalty? ???
mTk
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Re: Loyalty in conquered regions.

Post by mTk »

You need either military units to maintain line-of-sight or lots of recon satellites. Not sure how effective the latter option is since I don't actually use those satellites, only the communication ones.

You can always build advanced mobile radars at important parts of your region to keep an eye on what goes on there. Their sight radius is a huge 200 km or so if I'm not mistaken.
Graygan
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Re: Loyalty in conquered regions.

Post by Graygan »

Recon satellites are quite useful, though they do help to slow the game down ever so slightly. They will show you units that are moving. Units that stay still tend not to be seen, even with 100% coverage. The reason it slows things down is that now the game has to show them moving instead of just keeping them hidden, so there's that tiny extra bit of calculations being given over to the visuals.

On the other hand, it does make it easier to watch the progress of wars around the world when you are at peace and don't have an LOS treaty with either side. Plus, they don't cost that much. I use them because nowadays I always play with nukes and no or little international repercussions for using nukes. I've seen the AI use nukes and because it will use nukes, I always work to build up my missile defense satellite shield. The recon satellites get to 100% coverage long before you get all the missile defense satellites you need.
mTk
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Re: Loyalty in conquered regions.

Post by mTk »

I build Advanced Mobile Radars as my "listening posts" to maintain LOS in my territory as well as important border regions. They cost less than $10M to maintain annually I believe.

The reason I refuse to use recon satellites is precisely as the previous poster has mentioned above. It does slow the game quite a bit, and since I'm playing it on a laptop with a mere 1.8 Ghz dual-core processor, "quite a bit" can be pretty significant.
The Mithar Empire
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Re: Loyalty in conquered regions.

Post by The Mithar Empire »

If you think about it, loyalty is the same as domestic approval rating, it changes every day based on the conditions your nation is. The point being, the formula is already there just transfer it to the loyalty rating, and based on the rating it will trigger certain events. For example, if it gets low enough there is the possibility of a revolt, and the lower it becomes will increase the likelihood that a revolt will occur as well as determine the size of the revolt. Conversely, if a foreign region becomes loyal to your region then you can present that region with an Annexation (or Unification, whichever you prefer) treaty to that region and if the loyalty is high enough then that region will peacefully join yours and loyalty becomes 100% for your region and from there the DAR will reflect their satisfaction. I mean if you can make unification amongst x number of regions a victory condition in the game then it seems that it would not be that hard to turn that into a treaty option if you are playing the Complete victory condition for example. I may not know the exact intricate details of the coding that is required, but the game already has code very similar (if not identical) to what we are asking for.
Ehian
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Re: Loyalty in conquered regions.

Post by Ehian »

mTk wrote:If you think about it, loyalty is the same as domestic approval rating, it changes every day based on the conditions your nation is.
Yeah i agree but that's the problem. In current real world territorial conquest is no longer done instead a political one is preferred. So if we assume that in game the conquered population isn't turned into slaves then they have the same rights as ur own citizens meaning they can vote. I doubt, once u roll ur tanks over their country, that they will vote for u in the next election. Hence making loyalty very important from political point of view not just from industrial view.

Simple example:

U lead country A with 1mil population and 100% domestic approval (next election u win)

u conquer country B with 9mil population and 0% domestic approval towards u

ur new country A now has 10mil population with 10% domestic approval towards u (next election game over)

So if we are going realistically then yeah loyalty must change. I would suggest an option where u change it with social spending. When u conquer a country they increase because of the population rise but some should increase even more if the population isn't loyal to u like law and cultural sub. Hence giving even more money to those then u normally would for that large of a population would help ease the merger of two cultures. Democratic regimes should get a lot larger increase in the cost since they need to do it faster because of the elections while for the rest it should be a smaller.

That is why countries aren't conquered today they are subdued and puppet regimes are placed. Witch brings me to another problem that there is no such possibility in the diplomatic options. Generally i find the diplomacy lacking when it comes to treaties. There is no embargo, there are no demands and when u sing a peace treaty there are no options as to what kind of a treaty (no possibility of putting up puppet regimes)
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Igor
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Re: Loyalty in conquered regions.

Post by Igor »

Please BG, can't you just add the ability for loyalty to change in the next SRCW patch? You could make it optional like someone mentioned, that way everyone's happy. If someone doesn't want to use it, they don't have to, but if they do, they can. Right now you're pissing off everyone who wants this feature while only pleasing the people who don't want it. Just make it optional, please? It wouldn't even have to be anything fancy. Just make it so that as long as your DAR is over 50%, loyalty will slowly increase over time. The closer your DAR is to 100% the faster the loyalty increases. Simple. Please add this feature in the next patch. Thank you.
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Igor
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Re: Loyalty in conquered regions.

Post by Igor »

Oops, just noticed this is the 2020 forum. Well, if you're planning on making any more patches for 2020 please add this feature.
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Balthagor
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Re: Loyalty in conquered regions.

Post by Balthagor »

SRCW development has finished, there won't be another update, but it would come back to the same question as before; along what criteria should loyalty change? Ownership along does not cause loyalty to change. Just ask the Israelis, the Serbs, the Somalis or a good number of Quebecers. Stalin managed to change loyalty in the Baltic regions by doing mass population relocation, something we don't allow for.
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Re: Loyalty in conquered regions.

Post by barkhauer »

Balthagor wrote:SRCW development has finished, there won't be another update, but it would come back to the same question as before; along what criteria should loyalty change? Ownership along does not cause loyalty to change. Just ask the Israelis, the Serbs, the Somalis or a good number of Quebecers. Stalin managed to change loyalty in the Baltic regions by doing mass population relocation, something we don't allow for.
I'd have a setup like in other strategy games where a location has a split value, something like 10% USA, 90% Mexico, etc. Factors which should effect loyalty drift (which should be a VERY long-term proposition) would include: DAR (above, say, 30%, loyalty bleeds toward current holder, below it bleeds away), a coefficient for number of casualties in wars between the two (hard-fought wars with lots of deaths per-capita should make assimilation less likely), a penalty to assimilation rates if the region the land was taken from still exists, etc.

Basically, if someone has been annexed, and is doing better off under their new rulers than they were under the old ones, they should slowly become loyal as previous generations die out. If they're suffering, and there's any real chance of going back to their old country, they should do that as well. Additionally, I would look into your population relocation code (like when you shell a city with artillery) to cause people to "self-deport." If Israel occupies the Sinai, some Egyptians there should periodically move to Egypt instead of sticking around for the occupation.
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Re: Loyalty in conquered regions.

Post by Fistalis »

Balthagor wrote:SRCW development has finished, there won't be another update, but it would come back to the same question as before; along what criteria should loyalty change? Ownership along does not cause loyalty to change. Just ask the Israelis, the Serbs, the Somalis or a good number of Quebecers. Stalin managed to change loyalty in the Baltic regions by doing mass population relocation, something we don't allow for.
My 2 cents for what its worth :roll:

There should be a segment of any population who is willing to go about their life regardless of who is in power. As loyalty is defined now in game the population is always 100% loyal to whoever they are set at start. I would argue that this unconcerned segment of the population DOES change with ownership. Perhaps a preset % of the loyalty should change with ownership.. controlled by a .CVP entry.

One could argue those aren't really loyal.. but since they never were then there should be no penalty involved for them.

As to barks suggestion of loyalty drift.. perhaps this would give more meaning to domestic approval. You don't have to look to hard to see regimes which have controlled for years who have very little loyalty from the general public.

Side note: I don't think 100% loyalty should ever be achievable period.
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Zuikaku
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Re: Loyalty in conquered regions.

Post by Zuikaku »

Loyalty should be used to spawn rebels and guerillas and to make holding occupied/annexed territories costly...
Please teach AI everything!
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Balthagor
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Re: Loyalty in conquered regions.

Post by Balthagor »

Zuikaku wrote:Loyalty should be used to spawn rebels and guerillas and to make holding occupied/annexed territories costly...
This effect already exists
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Zuikaku
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Re: Loyalty in conquered regions.

Post by Zuikaku »

Balthagor wrote:
Zuikaku wrote:Loyalty should be used to spawn rebels and guerillas and to make holding occupied/annexed territories costly...
This effect already exists
I've noticed that guerillas stop spawning if parent country is overrunned/conquired. And that is a bit wrong. If that effect exist, maybe it shoul'd be tweaked a bit.
Guerillas/rebels shoul'd be closely connected with DAR and hex loyalty.

In SRCW there is really a way too easy to occupy/annex other nations. That shoul'd be way more costly and harder to do. Now we can take Andorra and annex France and Spain in a month or two without even worrying about resistance, problems of occupation or DAR. And that is a bit too easy...
Please teach AI everything!
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