North Vietnam and North Korea need HELP

[Onthebeach]

Probably too late for Update 3, but North Vietnam and North Korea need to be tweaked in the campaign games so they are not wiped out all the time. I have tried and tried, playing the USSR, to shore up these two countries with money and arms but whatever I do they still get clobbered.

China never comes in to assist them, as she did historically, and I can never seem to rush material there in ships in enough quantity to save them. So they always collapse.

Goats, something needs to be done as these countries are seriously unbalanced. Either beef them up militarily or reduce the effectiveness of the French in Vietnam, and the Allies in North Korea, and make China much more likely to send aid AND lots of units.

Thanks
Kim in Australia

[Zuikaku]

I think they are already working on that issues

[SGTscuba]

They don't always get destroyed, in my current game (I am west Germany), North Vietnam still exists, but North Korea doesn't, but then again neither does South Korea. (4 years in) But I do see what you mean as it does happen WAY to often.

[farrellmeister]

You just need to give them some love. Playing as China, I won the Vietnam and Korean wars. It just requires a very "hands on" approach.

[Onthebeach]

You just need to give them some love. Playing as China, I won the Vietnam and Korean wars. It just requires a very "hands on" approach.

Maybe, but I was playing as the USSR and almost stripped my deployed forces bare to send them to those tow countries as diplomatic gifts but it did no good whatsoever.

Historically, the NVA wiped the floor with the French; only when the USA intervened did they have trouble.
In Korea, China should be actively assisting NK even if the actual human player is USSR.

I still say the Goat needs to re-balance these two scenarios.
Kim

[SoB]

Both have 2 different problems.

NK it is that china enters the war to late. Fix china get's scripted to act.

Vietnam problem is the proxy war problem. I played NV and have killed more Canadians now than French.

[Lord_Draxnair]

The problem I always see in north Vietnam is the allies motorized infantry creams the guerrilla infantry of the north. Ik the terrain is supposed to affect it but gosh it doesn't seem like it at all..

[bvb]

Adjust the AIparams so they use infantry offensively (low mil goods usage, fast repair, cheap maintenance), a baracks in Vinh helps (a LOT), and they need more troops in general, since AI Combloc nations are not likely to send much. With params, a baracks at Vinh and me as the USSR pouring in infantry, arty, and later motorized infantry for their assault into Cambodia & RVN, they can do quite well. Numerous times had them take Laos, Cambodia & South Vietnam, ending up with nothing more than occasional French units getting destroyed as they tried to land in a port.

Couple times the war there actually helped North Korea, because the US sent and lost so much in Vietnam, they had stripped most of their force from Japan so the North steamrollered South Korea before units from CONUS had time to arrive.

[Aragos]

The secret is closing the ports. Get subs into the territorial waters of the country you are fighting and you can kill nearly everything coming in. Option 2 is to drop paras or quickly grab the ports, and defend them. You can then take out the colony/country and annex it. This will stop the flow of allied units coming in.

[geminif4ucorsair]

Both have 2 different problems.
NK it is that china enters the war to late. Fix china get's scripted to act.
Vietnam problem is the proxy war problem. I played NV and have killed more Canadians now than French.

North Korea - the problem is in AI programming.

The order-of-battle (OOB or Orbat) is accurate to a battalion and air squadron for late-49 (pre-Jun 50 invasion).

The problem is in the programming, whereby the US begins shoving infantry and tank battalions into South Korea well before the war historically began, as if they had advanced intelligence that the war was going to happen. Which they did NOT.

There was also established a schedule of historical equipment delivered form the USSR between Nov 49 and thru the summer 1950s;
whether this was used by BG is unknown. This should help the North Koreans - and is essential to survival - along with stopping the U.S. from reinforcing the peninsula BEFORE the war begins. US forces in Japan and the rest of the Pacific are also accurate to a battalion and air squadron (C-47, B-29, F-80, etc.).

IF this had been done by BG, the Korean peninsula war could have been much more interesting!

Example: I've ben playing a multi-player SANDBOX version in which South Korea is all the way up to Khabarovsk after eliminating North Korea within the first year - and its only two years into the game....very unreasonable AI game play.

Vietnam - The North Vietnamese should begin with several battalions in the far northern zone of the North but do not control a great deal of territory. While the French begin reinforcing, it is unrealistic that South Vietnam (SRV) suddenly emerges as a major military force....over-running North Vietnam within the first game year, then openly invading China and taking about a quarter of South China in the process! That is what has happened in this multi-player game we players are watching!

Further: Neither DPRK or Democratic Republic of Vietnam (North) could build any military equipment larger than small arms and light mortars when their respective wars began. While it did not take them - or China (PRC) - long to begin coping US 57mm recoilless rifles, etc. from 1950, their emergence capable of invading China and Russia (outlined above) just goes beyond reasonable outcomes.

The mod offering automatic Build capability for both regions (T-34/85s, etc.) makes for more interesting game, but realize, it is quite ahistorical, as neither country had the technical skills to begin building tanks, half-tracks, etc..

BG is apparently not going to go back and correct the order-of-battle (missing US Air Force at home) and other problems with this game release. So, its up to players to find reasonable outcomes....the above suggestion is one short-term solution.

[bvb]

It also hurts DPRK that they declare war before they've deployed their force, rather than having it massed and ready to strike at zero hour. This also means they have not built up their unit efficiency from "Fresh from the pool" status before entering combat.

Need to deploy a couple hexes back en masse a bit prior to the declaration of war. As is, they are just as surprised by their "surprise attack" as the South since it occurs via event.

[Fistalis]

It also hurts DPRK that they declare war before they've deployed their force, rather than having it massed and ready to strike at zero hour. This also means they have not built up their unit efficiency from "Fresh from the pool" status before entering combat.

Need to deploy a couple hexes back en masse a bit prior to the declaration of war. As is, they are just as surprised by their "surprise attack" as the South since it occurs via event.

Just because its done via an event doesn't mean the AI isn't preparing for it. there's an event for the AI to prepare for war as well.(not for certain if its used in the Korean war I'd have to parse the events) But it is used in other instances.

Edit: it is used.

Code: Select all

344160, , 39, , 2002, 2003, False, False, False, True, False, , , , , , , , , 

Translation:
239 days in North Korea starts prepping for war Vs. South Korea.

What kills korea is what killed them in real Life, the U.S. and other countries intervening. However unlike Real life China never comes to their rescue.


Now Vietnam is just borked in the the current system.

• 1 the AI doesn't use foot soldiers for anything other than standing around unless you're running a custom AI params.(something i had to do for the modern world with all the rebel factions who have primarily Guerrilla units)
• 2. Even if they did they don't have enough to stand against ALL of nato which is what happens since they are a french colony.
• 3.The USSR doesn't supply them with anything, or if they do its minimal compared to what was supplied in real life

We'll have to wait and see what if anything BG does to rectify this in Update 3. I do have plans for a Cold War extended Mod sometime after Update 3 which will look to fix these issues if BG hasn't.

My solutions will most likely be as follows:

• Setup a chance for China to intervene in Korea, Won't be absolute, so each game may play differently (my target would be to have china intervene 50% of the time)
• Use my AI params from the modern world so the AI considers Footsoldiers for attacks if it has nothing else
• Put a random modifier of when South vietnam declares independence, meaning it can do so sooner Removing NATO from the vietnam equation until later events (again not absolute, i don't want every game to play out exactly the same way)
• Spawn Russian units for vietnam Via events since there is no way i can force the USSR to give more units to them

[geminif4ucorsair]

It also hurts DPRK that they declare war before they've deployed their force, rather than having it massed and ready to strike at zero hour. This also means they have not built up their unit efficiency from "Fresh from the pool" status before entering combat.

Need to deploy a couple hexes back en masse a bit prior to the declaration of war. As is, they are just as surprised by their "surprise attack" as the South since it occurs via event.

The North Koreans have the orbat appropriate for Oct-Nov 49. In addition, BG was given a "reinforcement" schedule thru June '50 that would add the the aid the Russians were funneling into Pyongyang prior to the June 25th invasion. This includes 103 infantry battalions -
the South Koreans have high-80s. Both have a small number of reconnaissance vehicles and the North has T-34-76 Model M1943. The North's air force has Yak-1B and Yak-7s (some aircraft that predated the final air force that flew across the border on June 25th. The IL-10s are there also. The weakest link for all is artillery, in terms of the number of battalions - but this is representative of the pre-war shortages.

Omission - the only thing missing in the orbat is Guerrilla units - both countries had 3-4 battalions - and they were all active pre-war. The South Korean (ROK) units were attack from the Kaesong peninsula (on the west coast). These can be amended by players if you wish. They were not included because the status of Guerrilla units for SR-CW was not fully resolved at the time the orbat was turned-over.

So, while I have not played North Korea, they should be fine against the South...even thru Jun 1950, by which time (IF BG included the follow-on equipment), an invasion closely simulating that of Jun 25th should be possible.


As for the South Koreans, they lack a navy - but that was only forming at the time - lead by a few PCEs (as type rejected by BG for inclusion) and a delivered PC-170 (in Hawaii) - and more coming down the summer pipeline. The North had some coastal patrol craft and
ten or so (sources differ) of Soviet-built, steel hulled G-5 motor torpedo boats [these now have a UNITID# and may enter the game with
Update 3 - talk to Bathagor about...].

Given the above, the only Q that remains, is;
1] Is the U.S. programmed to begin reinforcing South Korea before the invasion? If so, why? s [The US had no intelligence indicating the invasion, in advance.]

It is an all the more interesting response, because the U.S. did not
have Defense Agreement to defend the country at the time of the attack....it went only after presenting its case before the U.N. (in which the Russian walked-out and missed the vote!) - and then acted on the UN mandate.

Is there a difference between the OOB/orbat Sandbox and Campaign games? There should not be (most unlikely I would think).

2] US Forces - U.S. forces must also wait until Jun 28th to begin a response; except, in the case of US naval forces off Hong Kong
(USS Valley Forge, CV-45) and members of its task group, including destroyers en-route to Philippines). The carrier Valley Force, its escorts (one heavy cruiser and destroyers) sailed north thru the Taiwan Straits for Bunkner Bay, Okinawa for replenishment and awaiting further orders.

Both British, American and Australians in Asia are historically listed in the orbat...which have some minor differences between Oct-Nov 49 and June 50.

Thus, U.S. naval forces do not simulate how the U.S. responded to the invasion, including the dispatch of an overly large air component bound for Taipei (Taiwan). Only a small number of air units, including P5M dispatched from Okinawa, began the Taiwan Straits air patrol a few days after the invasion began).