Canals

[Fistalis]

(forgetting for a moment that this is probably beyond the scope of a patch, and more suitable for an expansion or sequel)

Canals should be a structure instead of a natural water way. Being able to both be built.. and destroyed. Would also be nice if they generated some income...That is all.
(Seriously if I was say... china.. short of nuclear war my first action if I were to declare war on the U.S. would be to knock out the panama canal..which just isn't possible in the current game. How many bombs would it really take to knock out a single lock, making the canal useless until its repaired...)

I still hate that natural gas and petrol are tied into the same resource Natural gas powered fighter jets (the russians have been trying to get that to work since the 1970's so at the very least it should require a 14600 day tech research to do )

[SGTscuba]

(forgetting for a moment that this is probably beyond the scope of a patch, and more suitable for an expansion or sequel)

Canals should be a structure instead of a natural water way. Being able to both be built.. and destroyed. Would also be nice if they generated some income...That is all.
(Seriously if I was say... china.. short of nuclear war my first action if I were to declare war on the U.S. would be to knock out the panama canal..which just isn't possible in the current game. How many bombs would it really take to knock out a single lock, making the canal useless until its repaired...)

I agree with this, but canals should take some time to build as well (just look at the time it took to build panama or suez or kiel). It would definately make things interesting if they were added in.

[nick-bang]

The funny thing with this discussions is that the Chinese actually GOT the canal in real life without firing a single shot. Including off course the naval bases at both ends.

One of many very very strange transactions by the Clinton administration with regards to China ... Not strange that that Hitlery Clinton made China her first official stop as foreign secretary.


But back on topic then the Panama could definately be incapacitated or destroyed: for an idea of this scenario read Jeff Head´s "DRAGON'S FURY" (a must for any player of supreme ruler anyway) or any number of other similar books.
The Suez can be and have been mined, but could otherwise IMHO only be destroyed with a significant logistical effort.

[SGTscuba]

The funny thing with this discussions is that the Chinese actually GOT the canal in real life without firing a single shot. Including off course the naval bases at both ends.

One of many very very strange transactions by the Clinton administration with regards to China ... Not strange that that Hitlery Clinton made China her first official stop as foreign secretary.


But back on topic then the Panama could definately be incapacitated or destroyed: for an idea of this scenario read Jeff Head´s "DRAGON'S FURY" (a must for any player of supreme ruler anyway) or any number of other similar books.
The Suez can be and have been mined, but could otherwise IMHO only be destroyed with a significant logistical effort.

Suez could be blocked with ships just like during the suez crisis. Another idea for destroying the locks on the Panama canal came from the Japanese, who were about to send the mission off at the end of the war.

[Fistalis]

Suez could be blocked with ships just like during the suez crisis. Another idea for destroying the locks on the Panama canal came from the Japanese, who were about to send the mission off at the end of the war.

Ya with the I-400 submarine... which could carry and launch 3 planes while surfaced. Its actually an interesting concept that worked, but with the advent of cruise missiles a submersible aircraft carrier is a bit less practical.

(good reading for anyone interested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400_class_submarine )

[SGTscuba]

Suez could be blocked with ships just like during the suez crisis. Another idea for destroying the locks on the Panama canal came from the Japanese, who were about to send the mission off at the end of the war.

Ya with the I-400 submarine... which could carry and launch 3 planes while surfaced. Its actually an interesting concept that worked, but with the advent of cruise missiles a submersible aircraft carrier is a bit less practical.

(good reading for anyone interested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400_class_submarine )

but then you use a cruise missile to disable the locks right?

[Fistalis]

Suez could be blocked with ships just like during the suez crisis. Another idea for destroying the locks on the Panama canal came from the Japanese, who were about to send the mission off at the end of the war.

Ya with the I-400 submarine... which could carry and launch 3 planes while surfaced. Its actually an interesting concept that worked, but with the advent of cruise missiles a submersible aircraft carrier is a bit less practical.

(good reading for anyone interested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400_class_submarine )

but then you use a cruise missile to disable the locks right?

Or long range stealth bombers, paradrop a spec ops team in or nuke it.. method isn't really important. Results would be the same, for the panama canal..or any canal that uses locks.

[Chesehead]

Give the advent of nuclear weapons, the Suez canal could be delt with by those.

Given that, it would be cool if a plowshare type tech was added to make it possible to build super canals and such using nuclear weapons.

[nick-bang]

Give the advent of nuclear weapons, the Suez canal could be delt with by those.

Given that, it would be cool if a plowshare type tech was added to make it possible to build super canals and such using nuclear weapons.

That technology actually never worked - the Soviets considered it more seriously than the americans but in the end chose nnot to pursue the concept - just too impractical and hard to use with any degree of precision.

[provolone]

When I conquered Egypt, I noticed that no one else was able to use the Suez canal. I tried offering it to a few countries that I had been trading with, but public opinion had become so low of my regime that they were hesitant to sign. I thought this was unusual. I expected that countries would be bending over backwards to access the Suez.

http://enews.fergananews.com/article.php?id=2480

In addition to theoretical (and awesome) projects like the one linked above, the Soviets created different canals for irrigation in Tajikistan which resulted in the Aral sea issue. A smaller canal along a river system exists so ships can transit from the Caspian to the Black sea. Soviets debated reversing the flow of artic rivers for transportation and irrigation. Canals played a major role for Soviet development. I think they should be added in the game.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7638659.stm Caspian Sea Monster is a giant ekranoplan built to launch cruise missiles

As it is I did not notice any naval bases on the Caspian. Playing as Iran, I felt no need to defend myself navally on the Caspian. Plus any units I build there would be stuck for the duration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia_Canal

Ships over a certain size should not be able to access all canals. Rivers should have the option of being dredgged. Canals should increase fresh water production where it is applicable. If it would reduce time to trade with major trading partners, shipping corridors should offer some kind of economic bonus. If the corridor is blocked for political purposes, AI should pursue relevant treaties.

Libya also had a major underground irrigation canal project.

Canals may seem like a technology for the pre-railroad era, but when you take another look they continue today to play a major role in economic development.

[Col_Travis]

Unfortunately the Kiel canal has yet to be put in the game. This is regretable, the Poles had 7th Lusatian Naval Infantry division, the Soviets a Naval Infantry brigade and the DDR a Naval Infantry regiment plus both the Soviets and DDR each had a Motor Rifle division dedicated to taking it. While the BRD commited the 6th PGD and the I HSK division to defnding the canal. Given the fact that it is the busiest canal in the world and can handle the same ships that the Panama canal can it makes me wonder why it has been left out of all of the SR games. I found a nice video on YouTube from the bridge of the KMS Bismarck transiting the canal from Hamburg to Kiel for her sea trials, I'll have dig it up again.

[geminif4ucorsair]

Unfortunately the Kiel canal has yet to be put in the game. This is regretable, the Poles had 7th Lusatian Naval Infantry division, the Soviets a Naval Infantry brigade and the DDR a Naval Infantry regiment plus both the Soviets and DDR each had a Motor Rifle division dedicated to taking it. While the BRD commited the 6th PGD and the I HSK division to defnding the canal. Given the fact that it is the busiest canal in the world and can handle the same ships that the Panama canal can it makes me wonder why it has been left out of all of the SR games. I found a nice video on YouTube from the bridge of the KMS Bismarck transiting the canal from Hamburg to Kiel for her sea trials, I'll have dig it up again.

BG from the beginning of SR2020 put limits on the number of inland waterways (canals) that the game would have, including the one connecting the Caspian Sea with the Black Sea - an omission since corrected - prior to that, it bottled-up a whole fleet of Soviet ships in the Caspian that never served there historically (it was just guess work on BGs part as to what might be there in dividing up the Soviet fleet).

IF players start a thread with suggestions and justify their use by either warships or ocean-going international merchantmen, the some might make a future game - believe Dax is doing most of the map changes - so, am sure he would be interested. Be sure to note a internet ref source if you can, and indicate Hex # start and end points.

This might offer a good beginning reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_canals

Just my thought, anyway.

[Chesehead]

Unfortunately the Kiel canal has yet to be put in the game. This is regretable, the Poles had 7th Lusatian Naval Infantry division, the Soviets a Naval Infantry brigade and the DDR a Naval Infantry regiment plus both the Soviets and DDR each had a Motor Rifle division dedicated to taking it. While the BRD commited the 6th PGD and the I HSK division to defnding the canal. Given the fact that it is the busiest canal in the world and can handle the same ships that the Panama canal can it makes me wonder why it has been left out of all of the SR games. I found a nice video on YouTube from the bridge of the KMS Bismarck transiting the canal from Hamburg to Kiel for her sea trials, I'll have dig it up again.

BG from the beginning of SR2020 put limits on the number of inland waterways (canals) that the game would have, including the one connecting the Caspian Sea with the Black Sea - an omission since corrected - prior to that, it bottled-up a whole fleet of Soviet ships in the Caspian that never served there historically (it was just guess work on BGs part as to what might be there in dividing up the Soviet fleet).

IF player start a thread with suggestions and justify their use by either warships or ocean-going international merchantmen, the some might make a future game - believe Dax is doing most of the map changes - so, am sure he would be interested. Be sure to note a internet ref source if you can, and indicate Hex # start and end points.

This might offer a good beginning reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_canals

Just my thought, anyway.

Never noticed the Canal in the updated SR202o for the Caspian Sea. I also hated those naval units there since in RL there would be no need for Russian SSN's and Kirov battlecruisers to be present.

[Col_Travis]

I've posted internet, Jane's as well as a YouTube video of the KSM Bismarck transiting the Kiel Canal. I've even ploted out the map co-ordinates of it. The Kiel Canal is the busiest ocean going canal in the world and capable of handling ships that the Panama Canal can not, due to beam and draught. There are no canals that can handle any of the USN's super carriers and boomers do not use canals do to there vulnerability to attack and sabatage, they use either the Arctic or transit one the Capes. As for the Caspian Sea, the same thing happens in the Great Lakes even though naval units are not allowed by international treaty to be in the lakes.

[Col_Travis]

Another waterway that need to be changed is the mouth of the Columbia River it should be 'river wide' not 'river narrow' from Astoria to Portland When I was a kid I visited a Forrestal class CV durring Fleet Week in Portland, OR and all 37 of the Casablanca class, CVE 55-104 (Jane's FS WWII, pp271) were built in Vancouver, WA.