Developer Stigma: Source Code

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stuguy909
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Developer Stigma: Source Code

Post by stuguy909 »

Many developers have benefited greatly by releasing source code under strict licensing guidelines (developer owns all mods and sues your pants off if you make money off it). However, most developers maintain a high level of stigma about the potential theft or loss of profits due to the unintentional creation of freeware versions of its game or bolstering competitor content. Though always a threat, the statistics for those developers that went belly up due to releasing source actually show this stigma to be completely false. More gains have been recorded throughout the history of releasing source code, hands down. Everything from user made patches, new content, tools, engine tweaks, and overall game improvements that the developer NEVER had to pay for.

In short, a small developer such as Battlegoat Studios, can benefit greatly by creating a strict licensing program to trusted mod community members. Though I am aware of a few competitors: SuperPower, Rulers of Nations, and Geo-Political Simulator, just to name a few, I believe the quality of 2 of these products is highly lacking, and one of them utilizing an engine that is based off VBscript and excell spreadsheets, thus I seriously doubt releasing source code contracts to a few individuals would hand your market dominance over to a competitor. Perhaps groups of modders or individuals who pay a fee and sign contracts to obtain copies of the code can be instituted in the near future?
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Re: Developer Stigma: Source Code

Post by Balthagor »

We won't consider releasing our code until we are done working with it. The code base we began with has evolved and we are still improving on it. When we "finish" with the code we will consider releasing it.
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Re: Developer Stigma: Source Code

Post by Lea »

Balthagor wrote:When we "finish" with the code
...it will become obsolete (most probably). Only masterpieces remain interesting (e.g. JA2).
You have the right to make decisions - right or wrong, on behalf of the manager or the moderator.
stuguy909 wrote:Though I am aware of a few competitors: SuperPower, Rulers of Nations, and Geo-Political Simulator, just to name a few, I believe the quality of 2 of these products is highly lacking, and one of them utilizing an engine that is based off VBscript and excell spreadsheets
I was playing SP&SP2 and GPS, 1st game looks advanced to me (using FB data engine), 2nd game contains little dynamics so can store data as easy for developers.
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Re: Developer Stigma: Source Code

Post by stuguy909 »

Lea wrote:
Balthagor wrote:When we "finish" with the code
...it will become obsolete (most probably). Only masterpieces remain interesting (e.g. JA2).
You have the right to make decisions - right or wrong, on behalf of the manager or the moderator.
stuguy909 wrote:Though I am aware of a few competitors: SuperPower, Rulers of Nations, and Geo-Political Simulator, just to name a few, I believe the quality of 2 of these products is highly lacking, and one of them utilizing an engine that is based off VBscript and excell spreadsheets
I was playing SP&SP2 and GPS, 1st game looks advanced to me (using FB data engine), 2nd game contains little dynamics so can store data as easy for developers.
here here on Jagged Alliance! I would also place Fallout 1 & 2 and XCOM in the same boat. SP1&2 is somewhat advanced...but the economic model doesn't work right (RANDOM!), and the military strategy is just boring zzz. I liked the capturing and annexing regions feature, but I like SR's system a lot better (live capture).

I wouldn't go so far as calling the SR source code obsolete when and if it is released. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I would love to tinker with this game at some point, as I did with SP2, Fallout, XCOM, JA, Mount & Blade, and ARMA.
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Re: Developer Stigma: Source Code

Post by Lea »

stuguy909 wrote:here here on Jagged Alliance! I would also place Fallout 1 & 2 and XCOM in the same boat.
I am talking about wide-modded and reworked games only.
stuguy909 wrote:SP1&2 is somewhat advanced...but the economic model...
I am talking about the advance as software developer and architect. I work with data bases and data warehouses, not a games. So I can competently evaluate a data storage system only.
stuguy909 wrote:I wouldn't go so far as calling the SR source code obsolete when and if it is released.
The time will show. I am sure that the code will remain closed in the foreseeable future even for SR 2010.
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Re: Developer Stigma: Source Code

Post by kkania »

Wonderful things can be done with the source code, even for older games; it does depend, to a great extent, on what the initial character of the game was. Story-driven titles are less likely to be picked up by potential modders (though Freespace proves otherwise), but sandbox-styled games can be an excellent platform to evolve in a direction that the developers never had an intention of going towards.

Battlegoat works with Paradox, who have established a very interesting and mod-friendly model. I don't know the ins and outs of how the issue of source code is given, but the best mods evolve into seperate games. Things like Magna Mundi and numerous Hearts of Irons standalones help create great communities and generate additional revenue.

Then again, the way I understand it, games are heavily based on George's algorithms, which tend to be very complicated (as stated by Balthagor) and can be considered somewhat of a trade secret. Summing up - I'd love for this to happen but I'd understand why it couldn't.
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Re: Developer Stigma: Source Code

Post by stuguy909 »

kkania wrote:Wonderful things can be done with the source code, even for older games; it does depend, to a great extent, on what the initial character of the game was. Story-driven titles are less likely to be picked up by potential modders (though Freespace proves otherwise), but sandbox-styled games can be an excellent platform to evolve in a direction that the developers never had an intention of going towards.

Battlegoat works with Paradox, who have established a very interesting and mod-friendly model. I don't know the ins and outs of how the issue of source code is given, but the best mods evolve into seperate games. Things like Magna Mundi and numerous Hearts of Irons standalones help create great communities and generate additional revenue.

Then again, the way I understand it, games are heavily based on George's algorithms, which tend to be very complicated (as stated by Balthagor) and can be considered somewhat of a trade secret. Summing up - I'd love for this to happen but I'd understand why it couldn't.
you only live once. for all we know, George may get hit by lightning tomorrow and all his work would have been for naught. I wish the man no harm obviously. The point being that circumstances will eventually trump the need for protection or secrecy. My original post does, however, leave some secrecy in a limited source release. Perhaps Balthagor and his team's friends, or trusted modders whom they feel could do great things when placed under a strict contract. Thus making it illegal for the modder itself to release any code save for updates to BG itself. I am not saying I am the man to trust, or one with credentials to do great things. I am a low level scripter who likes making minute changes to games, like level design, sprites, story, and data manipulation. I will not sit there and pretend like I know what the advanced algorithms mean. I do know C++, but that may be inapplicable here.

In summary, this can be an important tool for a small developer, as they can keep the hired staff minimal, yet have a large number of "interns" who can do a lot of ground work for them. We the consumer would call the intern a modder, but the firm would think of the relationship as internship. Iron key makes this possible.
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Re: Developer Stigma: Source Code

Post by stuguy909 »

I know there is a huge outcry for mod tools, source code, more modding power, etc. I think those boos and hisses potentially annoying to the team. I am not for what the dev team can do for me, however. I like to do things myself. I am happy with the current level of modding. I can change countries, region borders, tech trees, and units to my liking. That is more than most games allow!

However, since we will not be getting a source code release any time soon, I have an alternate recommendation. Follow the Mount & Blade or ARMA system. I never heard of Mount & Blade until I read an article in PC Gamer about how the game was getting popular because of an extensive modding community. The designers simply left many of the scripts and files available for edit in folders that get compiled on the game's launch. Huge mods ensued, and sales increased due to higher replayability. Bohemia interactive also encourages modding. ARMA has grown leaps and bounds, $millions have been made, and the scripting language (based on C++), was made public, as well as countless tutorials. Did these two developers release the source? Nope. It's all about overrides. Most game developers leave everything compiled to prevent editing, or breaking the game, EA being one of them, later revealing the intent to force customers to pay for more content, which may even be the case with CW and future titles.

In conclusion, leaving more changeable data in folders to be compiled on game launch could be beneficial. We already have a good start with region data, region units & tech, tech trees, events, and units to make our own scenarios. I think menus, menu scripts, unit menu commands, and unit scripts would be a basic start to leave in an uncompiled folder. This way, we can also improve GUI, make special orders or unit actions that BG has no time for, or add content to boost game replayability. If someone makes good stuff, BG owns it. You can technically take all publically made mods offline and place it into a newer game you slap together and charge people for.
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Re: Developer Stigma: Source Code

Post by ImperiorIL »

Well, it's 2021, Battlegoat moved into a new series. I wonder if now would be a good time to ask for it again? :P

I mean, it just feels like with tuning and tweaking of the AI routines and changing a few formulas in the calculations for demand and economy I could change the game to make it interesting. ( as in, new experience, it kind of grows sammy after 100+ hours )
The current level of modding is nice, but, the most crucial parts of the game are still hidden within the game's exe. AI responses, minister behavior, market adjustments, threading logic, etc.

The SP2 model has to be the golden standard for modding in that regard. But any chance to modify any additional part of the game in any way through new files or allowing part of the code to be recompiled into dlls or the exe, is super welcome!

E.g: making larger countries respond more aggressively attack/defend, make ministers more active, make demand more dynamic, etc.
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Re: Developer Stigma: Source Code

Post by Balthagor »

Balthagor wrote: Jun 21 2011 We won't consider releasing our code until we are done working with it. The code base we began with has evolved and we are still improving on it. When we "finish" with the code we will consider releasing it.
We've already committed to another SR game when GR is done development, so we've got at least a few more years with the engine being strictly internal.
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Re: Developer Stigma: Source Code

Post by evildari »

any chances to externalize some calculations - that can be changed by modders?
ie. make a file that is read by the engine how to calculate a value in the game.
so a modder can change a formula like in a spreadsheet program.

well basically what stuguy909 wrote in his last sentences just expanded to calculations and not only fixed assets and values.
(technically BG already left all these fixed assets and values there to edit and "recompile" or in BG terms recache, just not some gameplay logic).
my mods
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932 (even techs and units for everyone - AI will own you too)
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=29326 (MARSX2)
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Re: Developer Stigma: Source Code

Post by ImperiorIL »

Awesome to hear there will be another SR game!
Might be the game I spent the most time in to date.
But I do also look forward to the day I get to mod more of it.
Thank you for keeping us fans informed!
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Re: Developer Stigma: Source Code

Post by George Geczy »

evildari wrote: Jul 14 2021 any chances to externalize some calculations - that can be changed by modders?
ie. make a file that is read by the engine how to calculate a value in the game.
so a modder can change a formula like in a spreadsheet program.

well basically what stuguy909 wrote in his last sentences just expanded to calculations and not only fixed assets and values.
(technically BG already left all these fixed assets and values there to edit and "recompile" or in BG terms recache, just not some gameplay logic).
This is actually something we're quite committed to doing and will continue to do as much as possible.

For example, the AIPARAMS data file contains a lot of settings that can change how the AI responds to actions, how it builds up military production, and such. The regions file (CVP) and the Events system also provide a lot of flexibility. Some items that were hardwired in SRU are being pulled out into data files now for Galactic Ruler and that will carry over into SRNG (Supreme Ruler Next Generation) work, for instance government type modifiers, changes in minister priority actions, etc.

While we don't always have the development time to externalize things as much as we'd like, this is still an overall goal we are working towards. We made sure to add a number of elements towards modding into SRU during its update cycle, including Steam Workshop but also the ability to allow scenarios to over-ride nearly any files of the game without having to change the core game (for instance, it's even possible for a scenario to replace the Game UI and UI graphics, although that's a particularly big modding job).

If there are *very specific* things that a modder would like access to that we currently don't provide, we'd also be happy to look at what it would take to do that - although as pointed out, new development is only for GR and SRNG.

-- George.
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Re: Developer Stigma: Source Code

Post by Rosalis »

- casus belli build up (several ways have been introduced during series why not give the option)
- ally response (all allies should be usefull someway)
- simply modify buildings like hydroponics and power without causing your game to break, also give buildings usefull stats, so if i take the time to mod in 100's of tourism buildings i see atleast an effect.
- building focus of ai, i mean do i really have to explain this one for a war strategy game? i want ai to be a threat, not scrap 100's of research centers after i take them over 1 by 1.

You can mod some aspects, like in the aiparam file (if you can figure that one out), but then you loose the focus somewhere else. Its not a or b in the world, but abc...

Edit starting behavior of interceptors for example. I dont want them to attack ground targets and i dont want them to do that for the ai. There should be usefull missiles for that. Maybe the big producers can sell them over the world... Sure easier said then done, but an option would be nice too on some aspects.

You guys actually tried adding a new tech to the existing tech tree? Its not that simple. That also tells me its not that simple for the majority of people deployed by BG. I tried editing the tech tree. First time it works (after deleting your obsolete WW2 techs in the tech file so i wouldnt get an error), after that the file somehow breaks. So you always need a backup of the backup and redo all your changes.

Some of the tools like map editor and unit editor are good, but doesnt really change the geopolitical outcome in a game. Unless your one of those who think units is all that mathers. Also production cost for example are pretty high on low gdp/c countries , basicly often the same as developed countries, this just creates a stale mate where the rich stay rich and poor stay poor as Cambodja 2020 gdp/c in game shows. This game used to be different.
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Re: Developer Stigma: Source Code

Post by ImperiorIL »

Rosalis wrote: Jul 15 2021 - simply modify buildings like hydroponics and power without causing your game to break, also give buildings usefull stats, so if i take the time to mod in 100's of tourism buildings i see atleast an effect.
Edit starting behavior of interceptors for example. I dont want them to attack ground targets and i dont want them to do that for the ai. There should be usefull missiles for that. Maybe the big producers can sell them over the world... Sure easier said then done, but an option would be nice too on some aspects.
That is a very glaring issue in the series. I sincerely have messed around with this game and tested everything in it so many times... And I still couldn't find anything at all on what tourism and business centers do. As far as I know they are just props.
Rosalis wrote: Jul 15 2021 Edit starting behavior of interceptors for example. I dont want them to attack ground targets and i dont want them to do that for the ai. There should be usefull missiles for that. Maybe the big producers can sell them over the world... Sure easier said then done, but an option would be nice too on some aspects.
I've actually tried modding that in, I removed the ground attack from modern jet fighters like F-14, F-15, and such. And did some tweaking with the garrison stats.
Long story short, it worked amazing. For one, planes were no longer absolutely overpowered. For second, bombing became an expensive endeavour since I needed to produce lots of missiles.
Thirdly and last, it just looked and felt good. When you have finally built enough missile production and stockpiled piles of them, you load up your planes with missiles and see the bombs raining down on your enemies... Best feeling ever.
I really do think it should be considered for the next game that modern planes shouldn't have ground attack (save from maybe the A-10 and prop planes), instead relying on missiles. It is just much more entertaining to watch and more tactical to play.
Rosalis wrote: Jul 15 2021 You guys actually tried adding a new tech to the existing tech tree? Its not that simple. That also tells me its not that simple for the majority of people deployed by BG. I tried editing the tech tree. First time it works (after deleting your obsolete WW2 techs in the tech file so i wouldnt get an error), after that the file somehow breaks. So you always need a backup of the backup and redo all your changes.
Talking about which, the tech tree is something that needs to be adjusted. Too many technologies clearly should have bonuses, for instance researching things like video compression, video games, etc... They should increase your cultural stats probably.
But a lot of techs just don't do anything. Including synchronous power grid and industrialization, which you'd think would be a pretty big deal. Maybe the first should give the first electricity boost and the later an industrial output boost?
Regardless, lots of techs are final (don't lead anywhere) and have no bonus, and that makes no sense from a gameplay perspective.
Rosalis wrote: Jul 15 2021 Some of the tools like map editor and unit editor are good, but doesnt really change the geopolitical outcome in a game. Unless your one of those who think units is all that mathers. Also production cost for example are pretty high on low gdp/c countries , basicly often the same as developed countries, this just creates a stale mate where the rich stay rich and poor stay poor as Cambodja 2020 gdp/c in game shows. This game used to be different.
That is only half true. The way the game has worked in the new economic engine there is a vicious cycle for countries, because of the way production costs, social expending, taxes, and markups work.
I think the whole thing is that demand simulation should happen not by amount of goods, but by "spending money". So, let's say your gdp/c is 1000, each citizen should consume 1000 dollars worth of goods - taxes.
And then figure out how to best implement growth into it. The major difference is that, no longer you would have an immense benefit to your profit by domestically selling goods produced synthetically in the most expensive way possible.

To give an idea of how broken the system is, I once built a lot of petrol power, bio fuels, and hydroponics. If you lower your infrastructure spending, that makes the prices go towards infinity (sometimes really fast), and you essentially end up with infinite money.
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