BGForums

Sorry if it was covered before in Cold War Dev but every query I made did not returned required data.

Please change treaty system. Force connection between Formal Alliance and Mutual Defense. Alliances without MD are totally pointless.

Current 'Formal Alliance' is for nothing more than collecting names and flags on the list to improve mood of a player.

BTW: Just watched trailers. Great stuff. Don't like (zoom in) map very much, prefer current one, but beside that trailers triggered uncontrollable drolling.

You do not prefer new high, efficient, and advanced 3 dimensional maps? you prefer the old technology? You prefer the past? You do not support modernism?

One issue is that if we change how those treaties work we also have to change the willingness of AIs to sign them which will lead to calls of "the AI refuses to negotiate with me".

It is being reviewed, no comment beyond that for now.

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Chris Latour
BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com

I might at least rename it from formal alliance to something a bit more descriptive of what it actually does. Cause it seems less like an alliance and more like a favored world partner or something similar. When you say alliance you instantly think that they will back you up in a war, which isn't what happens.

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- Dave
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Will mod for food!

Just to add my two cents on Formal Alliance = Mutual defense.

I know it sounds contrary but a formal alliance does not necessarily equate to mutual defense, particularly as it relates to the period of the cold war where treaties became much more sophisticated then what had come in the past. For example lets look at the NATO alliance. That alliance was initially developed to counter the growing Soviet threat, and those who joined it were pledged to view the attack on one member as an attack on all, and as such were to assist the party or parties within the alliance being attacked using such actions deemed as necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. As such, the alliance did not specifically state that members had to use armed force to come to the assistance of other members, but rather they needed to respond, but could chose how they wanted to respond. Now the reality is that in the case of a Warsaw Pact attack in Europe on a NATO country, it is likely that the NATO members would have all responded militarily as it would have been a matter of self-preservation. My point here is that it is a matter of degree. (Recognize that France withdrew from the Military integration of NATO while still remaining pledged to the NATO alliance. It was the reason France developed their own Nuclear deterrence.)

So in the game one would imagine that if you have an alliance with a country, and you get attacked, the country that you have an alliance with will take a negative view of the attacking country and depending on how seriously that action impacted the nation you had an alliance with, they may or may not chose to enter the war. If you have a mutual defense treaty in place as well, that would only further add to the likelihood that they would join the war on your side.

My last point would be that the United Nations is in effect supposed to be one big defensive alliance, there to protect the weaker nations, and punish those nations that step out of line. How often do we really see the UN react by sanctioning military action...certainly not every time a nation takes offensive action against another. Rather they react in degrees depending on many different issues. I have said all of this just to point out that I do not think we should confuse an alliance with an automatic expectation that the nation allied with you should jump into a war on your side, particularly if it is not in their interest to do so.

Exactly,no guarantees.How many regions allied with poland, and having mutual defense with poland, declared war on russia when it invaded poland.....
And thats the way the game should work, pressures,but not guarantees.

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This post approved by Tkobo:Official Rabble Rouser of the United Yahoos
Chuckle TM

Nice point with regards to Poland.

The British and French used their Alliance with Poland to declare war on Germany when Germany invaded Poland, yet somehow, a few weeks later when the Soviets invaded Poland, Britain and France were not willing to declare war on the Soviets...

Another good example of how alliances do not always equate to war declerations is Hitlers successful attempt to annex the Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia in September 1938. The French had a military alliance with Czechoslovakia, but chose instead to abandon their allies in favor of the Munich agreement. We all know where that led too.... But never the less it is one more example of a nation doing what is in its perceived national interest rather than standing by an alliance. However, this created a further negative impression in France and Britain of Germany and led to the Polish guarantee. So in the end Germany would find itself at war with the allies.

If a nation in Supreme Ruler consistantly breaks treaty obligations, eventually the other nations go to war with that nation. I find the alliance system works quite well in Supreme Ruler.

Why limit it to just an alliance? Why not different levels of an alliance. I am talking about 20 or so stages of an alliance. For each type to. An economic alliance. A military alliance, A diplomatic alliance. With each one of those at 20 levels. Basicaly what it would do is somthing like:

Military Alliance Level 1 (MAL-1)
Countries with this level can sell military goods/OIL to each other. (profit must be made on selling the resources for the trade to be OKed)
MAL-2
can sell units that are atleast 50 tech levels lower then the countries current tech level. (profit must be made on selling the unit)
MAL-3
Can sell units that are atleast 25 tech levels lower then the countries current tech level.(profit must be made on selling the unit)
MAL-4
Can offer sea transportation treaty. (Up to 10 year intervals) (no Supplies)
MAL-5
Can offer air tranportation treaty. (Up to 10 year intervals) (no supplies)
MAL-6
Can offer land transportation treaty. (Up to 10 year intervals) (no supplies)
MAL-7
Can sell units that are atleast 10 tech levels lower then the countries current tech level. (profit must be made on selling the units)
MAL-8
Can sell military blue prints that are atleast 25 tech levels lower then the countries current tech level (profit must be made on selling the BP's)
MAL-9
Can offer radar sharing treaty (line of sight for only radar units)
MAL-10
Can give units that are atleast 10 tech levels lower then the countries current tech level. (no profit required)
MAL-11
Can offer a Supply Treaty (units that are using the transportation treaties will now recieve supplies while traveling threw the territories)
MAL-12
Can ask country to come defend it from an attack (If a third party nation declares war on one nation with this treaty level, it can ask its partner nation to declare war on its aggressor nation, and this nation will only recieve half the penalty for declaring war, Refusal of this request will result in a lowered MAL level)
MAL-13
Can offer an attack treaty. (A treaty where both countries agree to attack a specific nation, The joining nation recieves half the DOW penalty)
MAL-14
Can offer a line of sight treaty (line of sight treaty that includes both radar and regular units)
MAL-15
Can offer a full transit treaty (100 year treaty for land/air/sea)
MAL-16
Can offer a Reapair treaty (units can reseave in each others countries barracks/airstrips/seaports to repair)
MAL-17
Can give units of equal tech level to countries current tech level
Can offer Missle defense treaty
MAL-18
Can give military blue prints of equal tech level to the countries current tech level
Can offer Military Goods Defense treaty (if a nation gets declared war upon, it can draw upon its brother nations military goods and oil supplies stockpile)
MAL-19
can offer Military Production Treaty (can Q up new units at each others military facilities)
can offer Perminate base Treaty (can build military facilties in each others countries), (multiple treaties of this are allowed, Only one hex is allowed to be built in per treaty)
MAL-20
Can offer Mutual defense Treaty (when one countries is declared war upon, both countries are declared war upon)
Can offer Joint operation treaty (allows units to respond to each others hotspot markers)

Diplomatic Alliance Level 1 (DAL-1)
Can build embassy in each others nation
DAL-2 (requires Embassy)
Can offer MAL-1/2
Can offer EAL-1/2
DAL-3
Can offer Criminal extridition treaty
Can offer prefered research partner treaty
Can offer preffered tavel treaty (Supports Civilian vacationing between the two countries)
DAL-4
Can offer MAL-1/2/3/4/5/6
Can offer EAL-1/2/3/4/5/6
Can Sell non military/comercial techs (must be at a profit)
DAL-5
Can request diplomatic sanction treaty (relations with a third country are lowered)
DAL-6
Can offer spy missions
Can give money
DAL-7
can offer third party talks (increases relations between partner nation and third party)
DAL-8
Can offer circle of nations treaty (increases relations between all countries in the group that have this treaty (the more nations in this treaty togeather the less effeitive it becomes)
DAL-9
Can offer MAL-1 threw 11
Can offer EAL-1 threw 11
Can offer Mutail immigration/Emmigration treaty (Will ignore closed border settings)
DAL-10
can offer like minded treaty ( relations between these countries and view of other countries slowly creep to an average (IE if A and B are in this treaty, And A likes C 50 percent, And B likes C 40 percent, They would slowly adjust themself so that after several years both A and B would like C about 45 percent.
DAL-11
Can offer spy network treaty (spies intel/LOS is shared between the two countries
DAL-12
Can offer Diplomatic imunity treaty (relations between the two countries cannot be lowered threw the actions of other treaties)
DAL-13
Can offer Diplomatic Suppport Treaty (if one nation in this treaty gets declared war upon, the other looses substantialy more relations with the attacker then normal)
Can offer Diplomatic Defense treaty (If one nation in this treaty gets declared war upon, the other severs all ties with the attacker)
DAL-14
Can give non military/comercial techs
DAL-15
Can offer MAL-1 threw 16
Can offer EAL-1 threw 16
DAL-16
DAL-17
DAL-18
Can offer Hostile act treaty (requests a nation to sever all ties to anouther country)
DAL-19
Can offer MAL-1 threw 20
Can offer EAL-1 threw 20
DAL-20

Economice Alliance Level 1 (EAL-1)
Open market trades can happen between these two countries
EAL-2
Can sell basic supplies (Food, Water, Timber, Ore) (profit must be made)
EAL-3
Can sell Advanced Supplies (Electricity, Comercial goods, Oil) (Profit must be made)
EAL-4
Can sell Comercial Techs (profit must be made)
Can offer bonds
EAL-5
Can offer prefered trading partner treaty (high demand products you are selling will go to these members first)
EAL-6
Can offer free flow labor treaty
EAL-7
Can sell rare supplies (Uranium)
EAL-8
Can give basic supplies
EAL-9
Can give Advanced Supplies
EAL-10
Can give rare supplies
EAL-11
Can offer shared network treaty (supply creep will flow over boarders (like it does now in 2020))
EAL-12
Can offer valued trade parnter treaty (Nations that are bordering will recieve bonues to there trade deals, bordering regions with a higher production cost will have those costs lowered)
EAL-13
Can offer border amplification treaty (can build roads/bridges withen 10 hexes of each others borders, Upkeep/cost to build goes to the builder for 100 years)
EAL-14
Can give Comercial Tech
EAL-15
EAL-16
EAL-17
EAL-18
Can offer Nation interstate act (can build roads/bridges threwout ech others nation, Upkeep/cost goes to builder for 100 years)
EAL-19
Can offer Emergancy Comercial Aid Act treaty (if one nation goes critical on non military supplies, it can draw from the other nations resource pool)
EAL-20
Can offer Comercial investment treaty (can build Industrial facilities in each others nations (only belongs to building nation for 100 years))


Well anyways this post is getting long in me writting it, so I am not going to finish putting in all the ideas I have. But it does show you how I feel the whole treaty system can be expanded. Yea there is still allot that can be added to this list, and some things should probly be moved around, but that is all somthing to be debated. And the thing about doing a system like this means you can get a better feel of how nations feel about each other. As it is now, you cannot really tell what they are thinking about other nations, or even you.

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An expanded deeper alliance system would be nice

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This post approved by Tkobo:Official Rabble Rouser of the United Yahoos
Chuckle TM

noted

_________________
Chris Latour
BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com