A little advice on WW3 as central africa please

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bungle
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A little advice on WW3 as central africa please

Post by bungle »

Ok here I am Bungle in the jungle, king of central africa. I have survived the first two years, doing the following.

First sold all crappy units.

Traded techs like crazy, started with the lowest tech countries and worked my way up. Trade absolutly everythng, every last single unit, they all count as value in trades with higher thch nations. As a result only usa still has techs I havent traded, ill wait til later before I use my horde of crappy unit designs on them, europe and japan will come up wuth a few in the interim.

Built an army of Bradleys and light infantry with some Pz2000 artillery and held off war declarations by Lybia, Egypt and South Africa.

Proceded to clean out South Africa and am now preparing to sort egypt before turning on Lybia.

Ok my issue is the economy, is it possible as africa to develop a stable low inflation economy with growing gdp/c?

I have had to cut back on R&D to reduce inflation a little but now im facing a slow deterioration of gdp/c which I had got up to a whole 2500 ish. Inflation down to 18.9% from 25% and unemployment hovering around 2.4%

Im running about 900mil a day oil surplus and about 800mil a day spend defacit.

Social spend is 100% in most areas infrastructure is a max and my production efficiency spend is up a fair bit too.


Any ideas or hints without additional information?

Bungle
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tkobo
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Post by tkobo »

No matter what region you play, you can make the commodities market your best friend.

Produce excess oil and uranium.Buy any that hits the market as it hits the market.
And sell what you acquire at a large mark up.Corner the market so to speak.Be the next trillionaire in short order.

Use the manual "price set" and the manual "amount for sale" sliders while doing this for what you sell.AND raise your price after each sale to the max allowed price on the slider.

Dont worry about gdp/c.While in the real world a good gdp/c is generally a good thing for a nation, in the game it has alot of bad effects tied to it.
Want your country to make a profit easier ?Than strive to lower your gdp/c.

Are you playing a democracy ? If not,dont pump alot of cash into social services.Your people want to earn a good living, let them join your armed forces :P
Infrastructure is an exception,fund this to the max you can afford.
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bungle
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Post by bungle »

Thanks Tkobo.

My problem is inflation and production levels. Also my understanding that eventually the other countries economies will go broke so no external market for my surplus.

Without a strong enough domestic economy I wont be able to afford a large high tech military or the research necessary to get there.

I pretty much have the oil market cornered, though I will take your advice and buy up the occasional tiny bits that appear. Even though no one else is selling it seems that occasionaly if I am selling too much oil or at too high a price the market just disapears on me for a few days.

If I produce all products at max my inflation would be hyper and my unemployment almos none existantwith the corresponding hit on profit margins.

My nderstanding of the engine is the gdp/c figure equates closely to the domestic populations ability to buy large amounts of goods at high prices so getting this to improve has been my main concern, its just eferything I have tried dosent seem to work or help.

For example.

Increasing production efficiency spend - This has reduced unit cost but dosent seem to ncrease productivity so inflation (INF) and unemployment (UE) remain the same.

Social spend to encourage immigration - because productivity seems so low extra heads just maintain INF and UE at the same level just on a larger scale.

Infrastructure social spend - Not sure here but just seems to allow bigger factories not improve unit output.

Infrastructure new roads or rail - As infrastructure social spend.

So.

Any ideas on what affects unit productivity?

A few other questions.

Is there an impact of military supply on all this? At the moment I replace all excess military bases with supply depots. I only turn on the bases when I need to build new units. but do I need those supply depots once military operations have finished to support economics or can i close them?

Is there a significant diference between deactivating and scrapping excess facilities beyond the resources recovered from the scrap? both military and factories.

In the long term will scrapping facilities in captured lands and rebuilding them in my loyal terrain impact my unit output in a positive way?

Cheers
Bungle
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tkobo
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Post by tkobo »

The reason your region can and will become a trillionaire if you use the market as reccommended is,the AI can make huge purchases on a sort of credit.

For instance say China has a treasury of like 1 billion.Say they need alot of oil.Say you have successfully cornered the market and now control the price at which you they can buy oil.

Even though they technically only have 1 billion to spend, you can get them to make a purchase for 1 trillion (or so).You wil get the cash in your treasury , and they will go into debt in their treasury.

Doing this its easy to build your own treasuries reserve into the 10's and even hundreds of trillions in very little time.

Try not to go into the quadrillions though, as it breaks the games number scale.

So the issue of the AI regions going broke wont matter, in fact you will be the prime cause of them doing so :P While making your region rich almost beyond words :P
In a game implaying now, im currently running Italy at a 5+billion dollar per day loss,BUT i have a treasury of like 30 trillion, and i can trick the AI into making a multi-trilion dollar purchase with little effort.
So the working deficit means aboslutely nothing to me.I laugh at it in fact :P

Now this should be done very early in a game to be the most successful.AI regions who have already gone into the red, are broke treasury wise,are far less likely to make these huge purchases.
BUT there is a trick that can make them do so even then.

The higher your gdp/c goes, the higher your production costs across the board go.Think of gdp/c as directly representing your workers salaries also.
So the higher it goes, the more you have to pay them.The more you have to pay them, the less profit you can make from the goods they make when you sell them.

Infrastructure is vital in the game.Its the same as military supply also.And thats where its easiest to see using the map filters.
The higher the supply (dictated by the infrastructure % in teh social services and infrastructure on the map-ie bases, roads,cities,rails,terrain,etc..) the more productive a facility will become.
So if the supply in an area is not equal to the infrastructure %,than you need to increase the infrastructure (on the map )granting facilities in the area (like build or activate bases, add rails or roads, etc..)

Max supply thru max infrastruture (both social service and on map) equals max production possible based on supply.

Theres a hot key that shows your supply level per hex in a colored overlay, use that to find any areas that need more infrastructure built.

There really isnt a major difference bewteen scrapping and de-activating bases IF you dont count goods recovered from the scrap.
There is a small maintance cost that scrapping will save you, buts its very minor.

Yes, scrapping facilties in hexs NOT loyal to you is economically very sound in the game.
Just be aware it costs money and goods to build the new facilities , and those costs may take a few years to recoup thru the increased production at your new facilities.

Some rather generic advice.
Though having a good understanding of economic theory can help you in the game, dont cling to it over the game mechanics.
Thinking something will happen in the game becuase a theory you know in economics of the real world says it will in the real world,can and likely will lead you into some serious confusion in the game.

Some of the sreenshots in this thread http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4334

show just how much money you can make off the AI by using the market method i describe.

heres a goods example
Image
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bungle
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Post by bungle »

Thanks again Tkobo. Im still pretty new to this game and I just cant help confusing how I would expect things to operate in the real world , with how the game engine operates.

Im trying out your advice and have increase my treasury to about 600mil in about a game month. Some pesky nations still put oil on the market when i price it above about $3,100, but ill sort them in time. :)

As I hit other things I think I understand but arent sure of, I will be back to the well for more advice.

Many thanks again
Bungle
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Post by tkobo »

No problem

Give uranium a good look for the same treatment also.Oddly enough, it seems to work even better in this system for making cash than oil.

AND it costs almost nothing to buy up in your pursuit of controlling the market :wink: :lol:
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Post by bungle »

Quick update.

Egypt fell last night even though Israel joined the war. I currently plan on holding them with a defensive line and artillery while i take out libia before turning east on them and south east into the Saudi peninsula.

Trade advice works great, almost too great an treasuty is up to almost 18 trillion despite buying in most of my water, agriculture and manufactured goods.

Im assuming that the model equates my 3.5 billion a day R&D spend to a high manpower usage, as my unemployment is at 1.8% despite running the industries I am buying in at 50% of demand. All other industries are at max 105% of demand except oil which is at 75% capacity for trade.

Domestic markups are all at 150% plus but demand still exceeding capacity, is there a scenario factor built in for africa that production sucks that will never improve?

A quick note, I got my missile use sorted but cant get iron bombs to drop consistently whatever I try.

Anyway, more when I have more.
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Post by tkobo »

Iron bombs are not required.

The default attack for aircraft when bombing, is based on the iron bomb.So actually loading them onto the aircraft is extra work not required to get bascially the same effect.

To make it even more of a not needed action, an aircraft needs to be in the same hex as the target to use the iron bomb,and aircraft have a loiter pattern which often takes them out of siad hex,meaning they wont be able to drop said bomb sometimes :lol:

The iron bomb was a left in/over feature from testing that basically no longer serves a purpose in the game.
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Post by bungle »

Iron bombs scrapped, and now using a range of missiles in different B52's. My selection of missile tends to be based on range, if range is less than 250km I dont tend to make them, I like to keep my aircraft a little bit back form the front line.

Now a few missile questions.

1) Which do you prefer - Im currently splittting between cruise types and none cruise partly because of the high maintenance cost of the cruise types (I know with your trade advice cost becomes less of an issue).

2) Accuracy and effect - Im only practicing now so only use b52's as missile platforms and only have 4 of them (1 with anti ship load for when I need them). My current salvo's based on 3 planes arent greatly effective, when compared to artillery. Does this improve with tech level or am I missing something with aiming?

3) Missiles vs Artillery. I have artillery ranging from 105km barrrel, through 208km up to over 300km MLRS type artillery. So to some extent range from artillery can be similar to the missiles I surrently use, the cruise ones I use only range upper 300km as the damage rate is better on them than the longer ranged ones. So

a) Is it worth the hassle of the build queue management for missiles when artillery does a similar job at similar range.

b) How do you rate the cost effectiveness of artillery vs missile. I have found that when all my artillery is going for it in a big way i burn through military supplies like crazy.

Cheers
Bungle
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Post by tkobo »

Answers in Red
bungle wrote:
Now a few missile questions.

1) Which do you prefer - Im currently splittting between cruise types and none cruise partly because of the high maintenance cost of the cruise types (I know with your trade advice cost becomes less of an issue).

I use two types primarily.Longest range hardest hitting cruise i can get my hands on, which i use to remove those bothersome enemy facilties from the map (like military goods plants, air facilites,etc..)
AND
The longest range area attack missiles i can get to remove that pesky anti-air to make my aircraft safe for their bombing runs.


2) Accuracy and effect - Im only practicing now so only use b52's as missile platforms and only have 4 of them (1 with anti ship load for when I need them). My current salvo's based on 3 planes arent greatly effective, when compared to artillery. Does this improve with tech level or am I missing something with aiming?

With missiles, quantity is your friend.I always use at least a single full stack of 7 aircraft and always allow them to fire off at least 2 salvos at a given target.
Yes, the damage of missiles will increase (and range) for the most part with the tech levels,but again quantity is your best bet.



3) Missiles vs Artillery. I have artillery ranging from 105km barrrel, through 208km up to over 300km MLRS type artillery. So to some extent range from artillery can be similar to the missiles I surrently use, the cruise ones I use only range upper 300km as the damage rate is better on them than the longer ranged ones. So

a) Is it worth the hassle of the build queue management for missiles when artillery does a similar job at similar range.

Depends on your intent and syle of play for the scenario.I abhor losing a single man ,let alone a unit.SOOOO for me, missiles make near risk free killing of my foes, as i dont have to get into the enemies range to fire at them with missiles.

b) How do you rate the cost effectiveness of artillery vs missile. I have found that when all my artillery is going for it in a big way i burn through military supplies like crazy.

Yes, but id still say artillary is the cheaper way to go, as far as cash costs.Bombers are expensive as are missiles.Missiles take longer to make also than military goods.
BUT
and its a big but,missiles in outragous quanities have no supperior in what they can accomplish, much like the bombers that fire them.
Those huge star partern clumps consisting of hundreds of static units the enmy has at bases, etc... You can remove the entire clump in one huge missile strike with no risk to your own units.
400 ? 500 ? more + enemy units killed in a single day.All by one huge missile strike.

So, while cost is without question in favor of artillary, effectiveness is much more a matter of quantity,use and situation.
I go missiles almost all the time.



Cheers
Bungle
I have some severe missile srike movies spread thru the forum.they are a great example of the insane things you can accomplish with missiles.
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Post by Feltan »

Bungle,

Don't listen! He is going to teach you bad lessons! When the Goats fix these holes in SR2020, tkobo will get his ass kicked by a troop of Girl Scouts!

Regards,
Feltan
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Post by tkobo »

Hhahahhahahhahahhaah.

Well at least make them Red Haired Green Eyed Serving Wench girls scouts !
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Post by Feltan »

tkobo wrote:Hhahahhahahhahahhaah.

Well at least make them Red Haired Green Eyed Serving Wench girls scouts !
Deal!

Regards,
Feltan
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bungle
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Post by bungle »

Hi Feltan, nice of you to respond on my post too. With Tkobo to teach me bad habits and you to keep a watchful eye on me im sure I will find a balance path to enlightenment. :)

So where am I now.

Well Lybia finally fell tonight on their 3rd capital, but its left me with a quandry. Those sneaky buggers Spain somehow managed t get a chunk of My Africa as part of their fall :).

So now I have a little issue to solve, I dont want to go to war with all of Spains allies yet, half the world has allied with them in my current scenario. So I need to make them declare on me, im assuming this way the allies wont all follow suit, as the will if I declare on spain with bugger all cause belli.

But how can I achieve this?

Stacking troops on their new land border in Africa achieves nothing, and I have no land border with their home terrain. So how do I convince them to be nice and declare war on me.

If I cant achieve this I will need to leave sufficient troops near this inconvenient spanish enclave for any eventual need while advancing now on Israel and the Saudi peninsula.

Onto weapons.

Ill work on my missile strike skills, currently using mixed AS-18 kazoo none cruise and scalp cruise, AGM-8F Harpoon for anti ship (not needed yet). There are longer range cruise types available to me but not with the same damage level vs soft/hard targets.

A quick one I have found useful and more in line with Feltan's purist approach, is a naval tactic im useing. Now lets face it when I look at the map, I see so much important terain on the coast. So what I need is the ability to pound it into submission from the sea. Lo and behold, a cheap low tech ship provides the answer to my prayers, the K-29 Goteborg with a whopping 121km ranfge vs sard/soft land targets. Mix them in with som nice modern frigates and destroyers for naval/air protection and you have a perfect floating artillery train. The DD-998 Chen Ma with anti air range of 236km I find great for anti air ans dmissile intercept.

I know the Brunel and some american ships later have ranges up in the 300's but the babies are cheap cheap.

Oh, and sending a few transports full of supplies along and the dont have that annoying habit of wanting to go to port to resuply all the time.

Well enough for tonight.

Cheers
Bungle
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Post by red »

For transport, I suggest you build a fleet of 747s, say fourteen or twenty-one squadrons working plus replacements, really not skimping. Especially once you're dealing with large bodies of water, it's simply not practical to micromanage or wait for naval transport. It's faster on the player to order units to move by air than sea, and if you secure a landing spot, you complete missions much quicker with air than sea, giving you a greater capacity. LAVs or such do about the same job as non-airmobile heavies, and can go anywhere--on a big map, it's much easier and cheaper to fly around experienced brigades than it is to keep half an army everywhere. For the same reason, it's useful to develop the best air force you can. Have a stock of anti-armor missiles reserved for anti-aircraft units, and slam them at the beginning of a campaign. Having the ability to bring in fighter-bombers at will allows you to fight using inferior ground forces without serious risk to them.
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