Unit Errata (renamed from Torpedoes...?)

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geminif4ucorsair
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Re: Unit Errata (renamed from Torpedoes...?)

Post by geminif4ucorsair »

Hullu Hevonen wrote:Why, do many ships have 124(100) anti-sub range? I have corrected many of these eg. Meko-100A has an surface range of 20-30km, while a sub range of 10-25km, DDH-280 Iroquois has a much longer surface range and a much shorter sub range (30/11). So I realize and accept that the Unit database has errors, no one can make such a big database complete and perfect, but Shouldn't it be obvious that there is VERY few vessels that can fire torpedoes 124km away(100km), the standard of anti sub-ranges are 10-40km. Many subs use the same torpedo tubes as the Ships and they have shorer ranges. HUH

I'm no Popeye the Sailor, and I could be wrong, but I don't belive you can get "every" ships torpedoes to go 100+ km :-)
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While not looking at the specific example you use as yet, it most likely is the enhancement in Attack Range that an onboard ASW helicopter has....which usually, if a helo is in the category of a medium helicopter (SH-60 Seahawk, etc.), it will and can safely operate some 100-km
from its parent frigate or destroyer - and can make anti-sub torpedo attacks on its own (or in coordination with one or more frigate/destroyer ships in the area. Smaller ASW helos (SH-2F/G Seasprite and older S-55/58 variants - found on older DD/FF types -
are limited to 35-50-km in general, what at the time was considered "safe" flight operating distances and within the range where coordination with one or more DD/FF types was available to assist in attacks.

As you get back to older WW2 generation and those modernized from the late-40s for ASW missions (Fletcher with Weapon Alfa or Gearings with Trainable Hedgehog - and both with Mk.32 torpedo launchers - the Attack range is determined by the torpedoes available at the time. Ships with just depth charges usually get an attack range of "1".....
hope that helps.
geminif4ucorsair
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Re: Torpedoes...?

Post by geminif4ucorsair »

Hullu Hevonen wrote:
tkobo wrote:In the case of anti-sub ships ,many have an anti-sub helicopter factored into their attack.
Then I think that the helicopter feature should not to integrated. It is easy to eg. kill your enemies subs if you have good radars while thir just outside port, a helicopter would not get that close before getting shot down.
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My response would be, don't take your destroyer/frigate that close to shore where your ASW helicopter might come under fire from any of several threats - SAMs, AAA, or hostile fighters.

Any "sane" DD/FF captain would not do it, except under extreme conditions where he was already advised there was no anti-air threat and the target submarine was pierside, unable to move!

Of course, that is just my view.
geminif4ucorsair
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Re: Torpedoes...?

Post by geminif4ucorsair »

sa_3_d911 wrote:
tkobo wrote:In the case of anti-sub ships ,many have an anti-sub helicopter factored into their attack.
i am sorry ,but isn't there already anti-sub helicopters ,like the Sh-60b60 seahawk ,& all can land on carriers , i usually use them in anti-sub missions in the middle of the ocean ,or do you mean that both the ship & the sub attack as one ,because i don't agree i think that using ships & subs are two different ways of destroying a sub
You are correct.

Given the limits of programming and game engine, it has been necessary to consider a ship (CGH/DD/FF) that has only a few helicopters - generally less than 50% of a Squadron - and that is nearly all CGH/DD/FF's, ie non-aircraft or helicopter carriers - in the game, must be handled as an "extension" of the launching platform's (DD/FF) capability to conduct ASW.....

in the case of larger helicopter or aircraft carriers than can accommodate more than 1/2 a Squadron of helicopters, those come under the control of the player, and can be moved to perform either shore-based on ship based ASW missions.

In reality, am sure that most Player's would prefer not to have to control that one or two helicopters based on each of their destroyers/frigates! Much better to just extend the ASW detection and attack ranges....
MK4
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Re: Unit Errata (renamed from Torpedoes...?)

Post by MK4 »

I realize development has ended for SR2020, but anyway, for whoever is still interested, the vanilla ORBATS(final version 6.8.1) have the following coding errors:

ORBAT 609 - Turkey
7145,,,,0.5,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Cougar
The code for the AS 332F Cougar ASW is actually 7154(the unit id 7145 does not exist in SR2020)
In reality Turkey actually uses the AS532 afaik, but that`s another matter.

ORBAT 899a - Russia
12206,,,,3,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,TU-95MS,Bear
There is no such number id/unit in game. The closest I think would be TU-95KM Bear-C(id 12204)

ORBAT 1801 - Switzerland
1352,,,,3,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ADS 95 Ranger UAV
The id number of the UAV unit "Ranger" is actually 13520. Whoever coded the file lost the 0 at the end and thus coded in the infantry recon unit "RC-AX Windchild".

If the data files from SR2020 get ported in a future SR game I thought it`s important to note down the above.
catatonic
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Re: Torpedoes...?

Post by catatonic »

tkobo wrote:In the case of anti-sub ships ,many have an anti-sub helicopter factored into their attack.
I've given this quite a bit of thought. There are two attributes involved here - spotting range and attack range.

The average submarine sonar can detect a ship at a much greater range than the skimmer's sonar can detect the sub. It is a very uneven contest in which the sub has an enormous advantage. The reality is that a single surface ship cannot be expected to successfully track and attack a submarine. Effective ASW is a team effort in which multiple ships, aircraft and probably satellites pool their data in order to track submarines.

I think that it would be wrong to increase the sonar spotting range of an SR surface unit (ship) just because it carries an ASW helo. Yes, in RL a helo can and does drop sonobuoys to locate submarines, but in a single ship vs. submarine scenario the helo is only dispatched to the location of sonar contacts generated by the ship-board sonar. So I don't think that the surface unit's sonar spotting distance attribute should be multiplied by the presence of its ASW helo.

But the attack range of the ship is certainly increased when it has a helo to fly and drop ordnance on a distant submarine. So a RL surface ship can only detect a submarine about ten miles away, even though it can attack it 20 miles away with an ASROC or up to about 200 nmi via ASW helo.

This paltry detection range may be increased in-game by factors such as increased spotting abilities due to research and recon satellite launches. Certainly, when the FOW is lifted, all subs show up on the map immediately, even those subs that are stationary and tied up to the pier, as regretfully most are.

I have modded the ships in my games with sonar detection ranges of about 10 miles. I give my subs detection ranges of 50-100 miles.

btw:
The last time I checked, SR submarines could attack ships through islands - that is a submarine could attack (torpedo) a ship that was impossible to spot due to the island in between them.
"War is merely the continuation of politics [diplomacy] by other means"
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Balthagor
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Re: Torpedoes...?

Post by Balthagor »

catatonic wrote:...btw:
The last time I checked, SR submarines could attack ships through islands - that is a submarine could attack (torpedo) a ship that was impossible to spot due to the island in between them.
This remains true.

Comments noted.
Chris Latour
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