AI Relationships - Changes for Update 4
- Balthagor
- Supreme Ruler
- Posts: 22099
- Joined: Jun 04 2002
- Human: Yes
- Location: BattleGoat Studios
AI Relationships - Changes for Update 4
Since the release of Supreme Ruler 2020 there has been lots of discussion about the game. Lots of suggestions have been put forward about possible directions for future development and lots of requests for changes have been made, although a good number of the requests have been either at odds with each other or at odds for priority. New features of our own have been added as well, with the addition of both content and features in each update.
This latest update however contains some core changes to gameplay, and in some ways balance, that are in direct response to feedback we’ve received. Some of the AI decision making processes have been notably changed for declarations of war and a new “provocation†value has been added to report to players how much chance there is of another region opening hostilities towards them. Much of this is based on data that has existed all along in the game but there has been confusion about how the data was used. The Causus Belli rating up till version 5.3.2 was a key factor in the AI’s decision to declare war on a region. It did look at other factors such as proximity, AI agenda, Diplomatic Relations and existing treaties but it would at times declare war when it had a high belli despite relatively good diplomatic and civilian ratings. Because of this the AI would act more like a player – declaring war when it could without penalty – and less like a real country would – declaring war based on relationships and political situations, consequences be damned.
We also have had lots of feedback challenging the amount of Belli that was given for certain actions. This is essentially unchanged as we still feel that if the US declares war on Syria with no justification, Israel would be justified to attack the US. They just wouldn’t want to due to other factors. Many of the players who challenged the system saw Causus Belli as being how justified a region felt itself to be as opposed to how what it actually represents; the justification for war when viewed by impartial third parties. This is why declarations of war without high justification will result in retaliation by other regions.
All of these two factors have lead to two key changes in the diplomatic system included in the latest version of the game. First, the AI now weighs Causus Belli less heavily but diplomatic and civilian factors more heavily, including government type, when considering if war is its desired course of action. This means that players could see a region with a very high Causus Belli remain neutral while a country with a very low value declares war because the second region is a neighbor that hates the other region due to other factors.
The second change can be seen in the Regional Atlas (hotkey <A>) and the Region Intentions section of the State Department. Since players were looking at the Causus Belli as if it was the AI’s want and probability to attack them, there is now a provocation value showing if the region is a low to high threat of becoming hostile. It uses many of the same factors that the AI does for deciding if war is a course to be considered but is not absolute, some uncertainty will still exist. It should now be a reflection of what players thought the previous value was showng. The Causus Belli of the player towards the region is still shown as players are usually more concerned with consequences than popular opinion or feelings towards a region. Of course in our multiplayer test games, our lead programmer George usually seems concerned about neither provocation nor justification in most of his attacks.
These changes to the interface players use and the decisions behind regional conflicts now mean that there has been a shift of AI regions acting less like “players†and more like “nations†but this seems to reflect what most players expect from the game. We have no doubt it will generate lots of new feedback.
This latest update however contains some core changes to gameplay, and in some ways balance, that are in direct response to feedback we’ve received. Some of the AI decision making processes have been notably changed for declarations of war and a new “provocation†value has been added to report to players how much chance there is of another region opening hostilities towards them. Much of this is based on data that has existed all along in the game but there has been confusion about how the data was used. The Causus Belli rating up till version 5.3.2 was a key factor in the AI’s decision to declare war on a region. It did look at other factors such as proximity, AI agenda, Diplomatic Relations and existing treaties but it would at times declare war when it had a high belli despite relatively good diplomatic and civilian ratings. Because of this the AI would act more like a player – declaring war when it could without penalty – and less like a real country would – declaring war based on relationships and political situations, consequences be damned.
We also have had lots of feedback challenging the amount of Belli that was given for certain actions. This is essentially unchanged as we still feel that if the US declares war on Syria with no justification, Israel would be justified to attack the US. They just wouldn’t want to due to other factors. Many of the players who challenged the system saw Causus Belli as being how justified a region felt itself to be as opposed to how what it actually represents; the justification for war when viewed by impartial third parties. This is why declarations of war without high justification will result in retaliation by other regions.
All of these two factors have lead to two key changes in the diplomatic system included in the latest version of the game. First, the AI now weighs Causus Belli less heavily but diplomatic and civilian factors more heavily, including government type, when considering if war is its desired course of action. This means that players could see a region with a very high Causus Belli remain neutral while a country with a very low value declares war because the second region is a neighbor that hates the other region due to other factors.
The second change can be seen in the Regional Atlas (hotkey <A>) and the Region Intentions section of the State Department. Since players were looking at the Causus Belli as if it was the AI’s want and probability to attack them, there is now a provocation value showing if the region is a low to high threat of becoming hostile. It uses many of the same factors that the AI does for deciding if war is a course to be considered but is not absolute, some uncertainty will still exist. It should now be a reflection of what players thought the previous value was showng. The Causus Belli of the player towards the region is still shown as players are usually more concerned with consequences than popular opinion or feelings towards a region. Of course in our multiplayer test games, our lead programmer George usually seems concerned about neither provocation nor justification in most of his attacks.
These changes to the interface players use and the decisions behind regional conflicts now mean that there has been a shift of AI regions acting less like “players†and more like “nations†but this seems to reflect what most players expect from the game. We have no doubt it will generate lots of new feedback.
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- Warrant Officer
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Jul 19 2008
Re: AI Relationships - Changes for Update 4
Great job on the update, but I have a question in regards to diplomacy. I started a new game playing as the U.S and I formed an alliance with Israel. I usually add mutual defence as well but with the new update I notice that Mexico and Canada have a high provocation against me so I'm holding back from a full committment to Israel. As the game progressed I noticed that my relationship with Israel is going south...fast. My cb is at eighty percent and despite the fact we have an alliance the good ole citizens of the U.S are ticked off with Israel. Are there factors the player can't control that determine the status of the relationship between countries like who Israel might be allied with or trade agreements they might have?
- Balthagor
- Supreme Ruler
- Posts: 22099
- Joined: Jun 04 2002
- Human: Yes
- Location: BattleGoat Studios
Re: AI Relationships - Changes for Update 4
Can you e-mail me your savegame? I'd like to look at some of your settings so that I can comment more accurately
please zip and send to chris@battlegoat.com and include the following line in the e-mail;
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 47&t=11906
thanks.
please zip and send to chris@battlegoat.com and include the following line in the e-mail;
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 47&t=11906
thanks.
- Ruges
- General
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- Joined: Aug 22 2008
- Location: Nearby, really I'll see you tonight when your sleeping
- Contact:
Re: AI Relationships - Changes for Update 4
Update 4, date: Mar 2021. Country US. World 2020 in Crissis. VE across the board
Started out as a typical game. First couple mins was the alliance grab. Every country trying to get an alliance with everyone else. All the typical wars broke out and probly a few more. After the first 5 months about 3/4 of the world was at war with atleast 1 other country. I was not doing much in the way of war as I was building my economy and science. However even after bribing Canada and mexico after a few months Canada declared war on me. I decided to go ahead and fight them. I think they lasted 3 or 4 days. since I did preposition some units in advance just incase.
The few differences I have noticed. This is the first time I have seen SK acualy win the war against NK without my help. India is not taking as much land in China as I have seen it do before, But that is becouse it is at war with Pakistan and a few others this game where it is usualy just at war with China. The Russian and China war is typical, where the front is not moving. Although with SK moving into china I am hoping to see Russia take some ground too. Exspecialy with half the world at war with China.
a few AI countries have fallen, Off the top of my head I believe it was NK, Belrus, Isreal, and 2 or 3 others which I dont remember small ones thow. I was allied and mutal defence with Isreal too. But was also worried about getting into a major war with Canada and mexico too soon. So I did not start to aid Isreal. And then they went stupid and started delcaring war on every country around them and promptly got thier ass's kicked. However during that time I did send them supplies and cash that they where short on. Even thow I knew it was a lost cause. As for the loss in relations part that you mentioned. I have not seen this with the other allies that I have a mutual defense with. Now Isreal did loose relations with me when they declared war on the other coutries. That is what you might have noticed. Even thow you cannot see it, doing a sort by CB the spot they where at on the list would have put them at 100 percent CB for me against them.
As for other conflicts the AI still has some issues with supplying units. and defending cities that are in the middle of thier country while ignorning major battles on thier frontlines. However the AI does have a more offensive push to it. But more is needed. And I think there is an easy way for the AI to decide if it should be offensive or defensive. It should be based off its owned land before the wardec. So if an AI country owned 100KM of land before the wardec. and then it now controls 110KM of land it should send 10 percent of its troops to attack. If it takes more land, lets say it now has 150km of land, then it should send 50 percent of its troops in offence. Also there should be a check that if a city is in the middle of the country, it should not have mobile troops guarding it. That is what the garrisons are for.
Well I am only a year and a half into the game. So will need more time to see how the AI is doing.
Started out as a typical game. First couple mins was the alliance grab. Every country trying to get an alliance with everyone else. All the typical wars broke out and probly a few more. After the first 5 months about 3/4 of the world was at war with atleast 1 other country. I was not doing much in the way of war as I was building my economy and science. However even after bribing Canada and mexico after a few months Canada declared war on me. I decided to go ahead and fight them. I think they lasted 3 or 4 days. since I did preposition some units in advance just incase.
The few differences I have noticed. This is the first time I have seen SK acualy win the war against NK without my help. India is not taking as much land in China as I have seen it do before, But that is becouse it is at war with Pakistan and a few others this game where it is usualy just at war with China. The Russian and China war is typical, where the front is not moving. Although with SK moving into china I am hoping to see Russia take some ground too. Exspecialy with half the world at war with China.
a few AI countries have fallen, Off the top of my head I believe it was NK, Belrus, Isreal, and 2 or 3 others which I dont remember small ones thow. I was allied and mutal defence with Isreal too. But was also worried about getting into a major war with Canada and mexico too soon. So I did not start to aid Isreal. And then they went stupid and started delcaring war on every country around them and promptly got thier ass's kicked. However during that time I did send them supplies and cash that they where short on. Even thow I knew it was a lost cause. As for the loss in relations part that you mentioned. I have not seen this with the other allies that I have a mutual defense with. Now Isreal did loose relations with me when they declared war on the other coutries. That is what you might have noticed. Even thow you cannot see it, doing a sort by CB the spot they where at on the list would have put them at 100 percent CB for me against them.
As for other conflicts the AI still has some issues with supplying units. and defending cities that are in the middle of thier country while ignorning major battles on thier frontlines. However the AI does have a more offensive push to it. But more is needed. And I think there is an easy way for the AI to decide if it should be offensive or defensive. It should be based off its owned land before the wardec. So if an AI country owned 100KM of land before the wardec. and then it now controls 110KM of land it should send 10 percent of its troops to attack. If it takes more land, lets say it now has 150km of land, then it should send 50 percent of its troops in offence. Also there should be a check that if a city is in the middle of the country, it should not have mobile troops guarding it. That is what the garrisons are for.
Well I am only a year and a half into the game. So will need more time to see how the AI is doing.
-
- Captain
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Sep 06 2008
Re: AI Relationships - Changes for Update 4
I have noticed that Isreal is doing the opposite of what is would really do in real life.. Israel, within the first month, will almost always declare war on Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria, without any reason, I have even played as Israel, and not found it very easy to get enough war justification to do that.
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- Warrant Officer
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Jul 19 2008
Re: AI Relationships - Changes for Update 4
You're right. I've done multiple start overs and every time Israel has acted belligerent towards its neighbors. This might explain the negative reaction from the states. Hard to support them and keep playing good guy.HalakBalakBalak wrote:I have noticed that Isreal is doing the opposite of what is would really do in real life.. Israel, within the first month, will almost always declare war on Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria, without any reason, I have even played as Israel, and not found it very easy to get enough war justification to do that.
-
- Warrant Officer
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Jul 19 2008
Re: AI Relationships - Changes for Update 4
Ruges wrote:Update 4, date: Mar 2021. Country US. World 2020 in Crissis. VE across the board
Started out as a typical game. First couple mins was the alliance grab. Every country trying to get an alliance with everyone else. All the typical wars broke out and probly a few more. After the first 5 months about 3/4 of the world was at war with atleast 1 other country. I was not doing much in the way of war as I was building my economy and science. However even after bribing Canada and mexico after a few months Canada declared war on me. I decided to go ahead and fight them. I think they lasted 3 or 4 days. since I did preposition some units in advance just incase.
The few differences I have noticed. This is the first time I have seen SK acualy win the war against NK without my help. India is not taking as much land in China as I have seen it do before, But that is becouse it is at war with Pakistan and a few others this game where it is usualy just at war with China. The Russian and China war is typical, where the front is not moving. Although with SK moving into china I am hoping to see Russia take some ground too. Exspecialy with half the world at war with China.
a few AI countries have fallen, Off the top of my head I believe it was NK, Belrus, Isreal, and 2 or 3 others which I dont remember small ones thow. I was allied and mutal defence with Isreal too. But was also worried about getting into a major war with Canada and mexico too soon. So I did not start to aid Isreal. And then they went stupid and started delcaring war on every country around them and promptly got thier ass's kicked. However during that time I did send them supplies and cash that they where short on. Even thow I knew it was a lost cause. As for the loss in relations part that you mentioned. I have not seen this with the other allies that I have a mutual defense with. Now Isreal did loose relations with me when they declared war on the other coutries. That is what you might have noticed. Even thow you cannot see it, doing a sort by CB the spot they where at on the list would have put them at 100 percent CB for me against them.
As for other conflicts the AI still has some issues with supplying units. and defending cities that are in the middle of thier country while ignorning major battles on thier frontlines. However the AI does have a more offensive push to it. But more is needed. And I think there is an easy way for the AI to decide if it should be offensive or defensive. It should be based off its owned land before the wardec. So if an AI country owned 100KM of land before the wardec. and then it now controls 110KM of land it should send 10 percent of its troops to attack. If it takes more land, lets say it now has 150km of land, then it should send 50 percent of its troops in offence. Also there should be a check that if a city is in the middle of the country, it should not have mobile troops guarding it. That is what the garrisons are for.
Well I am only a year and a half into the game. So will need more time to see how the AI is doing.
It looks like the update has made Israel more belligerent so I'm going to have to reconsider any diplomacy with them when I start a real game. I've been trying to get a feel of the changes made and thanks for the heads up on Canada. Looks like I was right to be concerned. I'm guessing that the United States could be in trouble from its southern border as well. The new update is changing the way I've played this game. Very interesting.
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- Colonel
- Posts: 458
- Joined: Sep 12 2008
Re: AI Relationships - Changes for Update 4
The new mechaniks give complete new results. In some cases, 10% CB with very bad relations are enogh for the AI to declare war. But a DOW with only 10% CB delete any CB from other nations for the defender, and raise the CB for the AI.
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- Major
- Posts: 195
- Joined: Sep 21 2008
- Location: Querétaro
Re: AI Relationships - Changes for Update 4
Yes, agree, i am playing with the U.S. as well and i got attacked byboth Canada and Mexico, though i sue for peace right away after they declared war on me, but, six month later Canada declares war on me again, not the case of Mexico this time, i´ve tried bribing them, but with no result, the casus beli is 60% (canada), and 23% (Mexico), o gave them technology, tons of money and resources, but no change, i had tried to lower my military build up capacity to ensure a better international opinion about my region, but no good at all, also. So i will resort to casus beli talks and see if i can get a bigger idea of this aggressiveness.Supreme67 wrote:Ruges wrote:Update 4, date: Mar 2021. Country US. World 2020 in Crissis. VE across the board
Started out as a typical game. First couple mins was the alliance grab. Every country trying to get an alliance with everyone else. All the typical wars broke out and probly a few more. After the first 5 months about 3/4 of the world was at war with atleast 1 other country. I was not doing much in the way of war as I was building my economy and science. However even after bribing Canada and mexico after a few months Canada declared war on me. I decided to go ahead and fight them. I think they lasted 3 or 4 days. since I did preposition some units in advance just incase.
The few differences I have noticed. This is the first time I have seen SK acualy win the war against NK without my help. India is not taking as much land in China as I have seen it do before, But that is becouse it is at war with Pakistan and a few others this game where it is usualy just at war with China. The Russian and China war is typical, where the front is not moving. Although with SK moving into china I am hoping to see Russia take some ground too. Exspecialy with half the world at war with China.
a few AI countries have fallen, Off the top of my head I believe it was NK, Belrus, Isreal, and 2 or 3 others which I dont remember small ones thow. I was allied and mutal defence with Isreal too. But was also worried about getting into a major war with Canada and mexico too soon. So I did not start to aid Isreal. And then they went stupid and started delcaring war on every country around them and promptly got thier ass's kicked. However during that time I did send them supplies and cash that they where short on. Even thow I knew it was a lost cause. As for the loss in relations part that you mentioned. I have not seen this with the other allies that I have a mutual defense with. Now Isreal did loose relations with me when they declared war on the other coutries. That is what you might have noticed. Even thow you cannot see it, doing a sort by CB the spot they where at on the list would have put them at 100 percent CB for me against them.
As for other conflicts the AI still has some issues with supplying units. and defending cities that are in the middle of thier country while ignorning major battles on thier frontlines. However the AI does have a more offensive push to it. But more is needed. And I think there is an easy way for the AI to decide if it should be offensive or defensive. It should be based off its owned land before the wardec. So if an AI country owned 100KM of land before the wardec. and then it now controls 110KM of land it should send 10 percent of its troops to attack. If it takes more land, lets say it now has 150km of land, then it should send 50 percent of its troops in offence. Also there should be a check that if a city is in the middle of the country, it should not have mobile troops guarding it. That is what the garrisons are for.
Well I am only a year and a half into the game. So will need more time to see how the AI is doing.
It looks like the update has made Israel more belligerent so I'm going to have to reconsider any diplomacy with them when I start a real game. I've been trying to get a feel of the changes made and thanks for the heads up on Canada. Looks like I was right to be concerned. I'm guessing that the United States could be in trouble from its southern border as well. The new update is changing the way I've played this game. Very interesting.
- Thorgrimm
- Captain
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Aug 08 2005
Re: AI Relationships - Changes for Update 4
I got a really good laugh out of this statement here. Canada is 10 times more of a threat than Mexico, and no offense to any Canadians, and that is not much. I beat Mexico as California, by myself. So have no fear of La Estados Unidos De Mexico.Supreme67 wrote:I'm guessing that the United States could be in trouble from its southern border as well. The new update is changing the way I've played this game. Very interesting.
Consider any war dec by Canada and Mexico as a gift. It gives you North America, keeps the UN off your back, and if your relations are high enough with the UN they will even send their neat nifty 'advisors' to help out.
So instead of cringing at a war dec from the small fry, act like a superpower and show them why they just made the biggest mistake of their nation's existence.
Cheers, Thorgrimm
Saepius Exertus, Semper Fidelis, Frater Infinitas
Sic Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
Sic Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
- Legend
- General
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- Location: Ancaster, Ontario - BattleGoat Studios
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Re: AI Relationships - Changes for Update 4
Once we model weather into the game, the US will be in trouble. As soon as you cross our border your troops will wander around aimlessly asking, "why is it so cold" and starting looking for polar bear to take pictures of. I hope you put snow tires on your jeeps.
- tkobo
- Supreme Ruler
- Posts: 12397
- Joined: Jun 04 2002
- Location: In a vast zionist plot ...RIGHT BEHIND YOU ! Oh Noes !
Re: AI Relationships - Changes for Update 4
Hmmm.... i dont know..
Ive watched a few of these play out now, and im amazed at how successful those few units in Alaska are in driving into Canada.
Now add it some feature in game that makes an invading army eat the food of the region they are invading, and Canada will kill off the U.S. invasion in weeks
Ive watched a few of these play out now, and im amazed at how successful those few units in Alaska are in driving into Canada.
Now add it some feature in game that makes an invading army eat the food of the region they are invading, and Canada will kill off the U.S. invasion in weeks
This post approved by Tkobo:Official Rabble Rouser of the United Yahoos
Chuckle TM
Chuckle TM
- Thorgrimm
- Captain
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Aug 08 2005
Re: AI Relationships - Changes for Update 4
LMAO! Thats a good one dude. And no I am not being sarcastic. A really good comeback.Legend wrote:Once we model weather into the game, the US will be in trouble. As soon as you cross our border your troops will wander around aimlessly asking, "why is it so cold" and starting looking for polar bear to take pictures of. I hope you put snow tires on your jeeps.
But considering I have went through the Arctic warfare school in Ft. Wainwright, in Alaska, I would not bet on that bud.
I can see the good ole boys from the south shivering, but remember there are Yank states that border Canada. And having lived in Minnesota I can heartily say it's just as cold as Calgary, Winnipeg, or Edmonton.
Cheers, Thorgrimm
Saepius Exertus, Semper Fidelis, Frater Infinitas
Sic Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
Sic Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
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- Warrant Officer
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Re: AI Relationships - Changes for Update 4
North America at what cost? A wrecked economy that will take time to recover from and it leaves the country vunerable from attack from some of the up and coming new powers. I've started a real game and I just watched my only ally in the middle east get wiped off the face of the planet (Israel). Brazil is kicking butt in South America and no doubt they are going to make their way northward. I don't want a war with Mexico and Canada right now. It will devestate me economically and hurt my goal of countering Brazil when they do make that track to my backdoor.Thorgrimm wrote:I got a really good laugh out of this statement here. Canada is 10 times more of a threat than Mexico, and no offense to any Canadians, and that is not much. I beat Mexico as California, by myself. So have no fear of La Estados Unidos De Mexico.Supreme67 wrote:I'm guessing that the United States could be in trouble from its southern border as well. The new update is changing the way I've played this game. Very interesting.
Consider any war dec by Canada and Mexico as a gift. It gives you North America, keeps the UN off your back, and if your relations are high enough with the UN they will even send their neat nifty 'advisors' to help out.
So instead of cringing at a war dec from the small fry, act like a superpower and show them why they just made the biggest mistake of their nation's existence.
Cheers, Thorgrimm
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- Warrant Officer
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Re: AI Relationships - Changes for Update 4
Question for anyone who can answer, with the new update are you penalized if you don't come to an ally's aid and they are eliminated? I just saw my rating with the UN drop considerably. This is the first time I've played where an ally was eliminated.