spies

[Zimon]

hi there,
im wondering what you can actually do with spies. i sent one to iran on a sabatage mission, but hes there for about 2 months and nothing happened. i seriously want to provoke iran and get into a conflict.
btw: ive noticed that as israel you have 50% or so casus belli on iran. how can a increase it further?

thanks in advance,
zimon

[Mitchell]

Read this thread...

[Zimon]

okay im informed as far as the spies a concerned. what about casus belli?

[Mitchell]

okay im informed as far as the spies a concerned. what about casus belli?

I am not sure anybody has yet come up with a good formula for getting your own CB up against a target nation, but I have been experimenting with using bad diplomatic offers as a means of lowering your region's diplomatic opinion of them. This involves offering trades you know they will not accept, and it seems to work with some countries better than others.

Often a better approach is to get them to declare war on you instead. The best approach for this is to increase your build cap and deploy units where they can see them - in other words, look like a threat and they are likely to treat you like one and eventually attack. However, as Isreal, I expect these actions would likely get you attacked by others as well, and maybe sooner rather than later, so be ready...

[Zimon]

thank you!

[Apollon]

using bad diplomatic offers as a means of lowering your region's diplomatic opinion of them.

How many of those offers would be necessary for an observable result, roughly?

it seems to work with some countries better than others.

Do you have any examples of these countries?

deploy units where they can see them - in other words, look like a threat and they are likely to treat you like one and eventually attack.

Hmm, are you sure this works? Wouldn't this also imply that having a line-of-sight treaty with someone will make them eventually hate you, since they can see your entire army?
Also, I'm really surprised the AI gets its assessment of your strength from what it can actually see. I would guess the size of your army staff (the one you see in the big countries overview) would be a better indicator of relative military potential, since it is readily available and independend from your recon capacity.

[bonfire01]

okay im informed as far as the spies a concerned. what about casus belli?

If your opponent is in a war try for an alliance with the nation they are warring, that usually helps with CB.

[Mitchell]

How many of those offers would be necessary for an observable result, roughly?

About a week's worth of daily bad offers causes a noticeable drop in my people's the Diplomatic Opinion toward the target (I playing as Michigan and targeting Wisconsin). CB is increasing, but I cannot proove that the two are realted - CB could be increasing for some other reason(?)

Do you have any examples of these countries?

Playing as Michigan and targeting Wisconsin

Hmm, are you sure this works? Wouldn't this also imply that having a line-of-sight treaty with someone will make them eventually hate you, since they can see your entire army?
Also, I'm really surprised the AI gets its assessment of your strength from what it can actually see. I would guess the size of your army staff (the one you see in the big countries overview) would be a better indicator of relative military potential, since it is readily available and independend from your recon capacity.

Good point about the LOS treaty, and I should have added the troops are deployed along the border. It's probably not just that the target region "sees" them but rather reacts to a mass of force in close proximity. I am convinced that having a high build cap makes the nighbors hate you, though. Also, I think the size of the army staff given on the countries overview doesn't distinguish between reserve and deployed personnel, so it is of only limited use assessing imminent threats.

[Apollon]

This is getting really interesting. I wonder how much of this will still apply after the patch, though.

About a week's worth of daily bad offers

Does this mean that 7 offers spread over 7 days are more effective than the same number made at the same day? If the patch doesn't come out today, I'm going to try and see if there is a difference (unless you have some more info).

[Mitchell]

Does this mean that 7 offers spread over 7 days are more effective than the same number made at the same day? If the patch doesn't come out today, I'm going to try and see if there is a difference (unless you have some more info).

This is based more on my experience with SR2010 than actual testing in SR2020. In 2010, if you wanted to make another region like you, it was much more effective to give multiple gifts of a smaller amount than to give an equivalent total amount or even more in one lump sum. I think what's happening is that you take a hit diplomatically with each failed negotiation. The reverse also appears true: you gain diplomatic opinion with each successful negotiation. This makes it worthwhile to agree to those counter-offers you always get asking for more money when first dealing with a region. As the diplomatic optiion warms with a particular region trades are successful at a much more equitable balance than when "indifferent" towards you.

If you have time to experiment more scientifically I (and others, I am sure) will be very interested in the results.

[Apollon]

Well, I did try to observe the AI's mood, though not in a very systematic way. Still, I'm 90% sure that offers (successful or unsuccessful) don't change their opinion in either way. Certain reaties, however, can make them love you like crazy (alliance and non aggression, not sure about the others).
I also found out that the AI's opinion of you does also depends on how many units you have on the map (i.e. not in reserve), whether they can see them or not. Putting all your forces in reserve makes the AI's CB against you drop by 1% every few days (applies to all the countries on the globe, except for the ones you have an alliance with (allies don't get CB for your parading your armies)). The closer the CB gets to zero, the slower it drops. At around 20% it takes about a week for every further 1%.
It will, however, not drop at all, if you have even one active military fabrication building.

Also, once their opinion of you has gone orange, there is nothing on earth you can do to restore your relations.

[dust off]

I'm fairly sure successful Diplo does improve relations, and I think that I read that unsuccessful diplo had no effect.

I'm very interested in whether units on map affect CB. The idea here would be supported by my Isreal game where I've mostly had my units in reserve and my CB went down even with Syria.

[Apollon]

I'm fairly sure successful Diplo does improve relations,

I observed nothing of the kind. Even after 30 successful offers and 10 gifts, nothing changed.

and I think that I read that unsuccessful diplo had no effect.

This is consistent with my observations.

I'm very interested in whether units on map affect CB. The idea here would be supported by my Isreal game where I've mostly had my units in reserve and my CB went down even with Syria.

They do, and the effect is immeadiate. I did it 3-4 times in a row. Deploy your troops, and the very next day the global CB against you starts to rise, 1% per day. Send them back to reserve, and 24 hours later, your CB will have dropped by 1%.


However, there must be something else going on. All the countries in the world have 19% CB against me (except for my allies, who have 0%), and no matter what I do, it just won't drop any further. All my fabrications are off line, all my units are in reserve (yes, all 10 engineers and 14 trucks ). I even scrapped all my airfields and shut all but one barracks down. There must be something more that annoys the AI. My military staff is the smallest in the world, I'm not allied to a warring country... what could be going on?

[Apollon]

It will, however, not drop at all, if you have even one active military fabrication building.

Actually, this is wrong. The number of active fabrication buildings does not affect CB in any way, as long as you're not one of the top 3 countries.