Russia HAS bombers !!!!

[Krafty]

I cant find anything about sales to nicoragua, and that to me, considering the sandinistas lost, pretty unlikely that cuba would arm its enemies. Its sold off some of its older soviet military assets that arent really viable as defensive forces against a US invasion, that also seems far less imminent in recent years to Castros regime.

As for the helicopter forces, all of them are still in service, in both civilian and military roles (and a dictatorship, can always conscript them back into the military). Cuba still has forces in angola, and around the carribean. Its been independant of soviet funding for 20 years, and has increased its literacy and economy, as well its health care system, which may seem abysmal by US standards but does cover the nations entire population quite while, and "Che" medical college is still one of the best in the world, students arrive from all over latin america to study there.

There hasnt been an economic crisis in Cuba since the collapse of the soviet union, and with a planned economy they weathered that transition quite well (that Castros still in power is a testament to his ability to provide just enough to not be deposed) considering. Downsizing of the military from cold war forces is pretty standard across the board, no matter what nation youre talking about. I dont forsee an economic crisis in the near future either, if anything the opening of their society is just going to make them stronger while the superpowers get weaker. At least that seems to be the current trend.

The cuban dollar is gaining on the US dollar, and not just because the dollar is dropping. Cuba is actually getting stronger.

I agree the navy is pretty generous but considering none of the transports can carry even a split light infantry unit, theyre just taking up funds are surely going to be disbanded immediately.

Besides that the navy seems appropiate to me, and a good abstraction of what the next 12 years might bring.

Im curious where the T-72s came from, because I dont see any of those in my orbats.

Id happily trade those T-72s for a few squads of Mi-24s and 17s.

As well as the ability to produce air to surface and surface to air missiles (which cuba currently produces for itself).

Also in a world that increasingly demands more and more goods, cuba, with a supply of oil, sugar, and copper, has a pretty decent chance at making a killing in the comming years, where countries like the US and Russia who dont even meet their own demands, are going to suffer.

But thats just the speculation of a political science major...who knows.

[geminif4ucorsair]

Karfty says the twin-engine B-26 Marauder medium bomber is in the game....and "Production of B26 Marauders stopped in 1947...".....

Nah. I don't believe it is in the game - please post a page showing it listed....otherwise, you are either reading it wrong or its a glitch in your
disk!

And, the B-26 ended production in 1945, not 1947....as all contracts were cancelled in the last month of the war with Japan. It's a nice twin engine
medium bomber and would do well in another game...but not this one!

[geminif4ucorsair]

Krafty says "sales to nicoragua, and that to me, considering the sandinistas lost, pretty unlikely that cuba would arm its enemies."

At the time of the sale and donation of early-generation Fishbed aircraft,
the Sandanistas were still in power, so there was nothing unusual about the sale. Believe Nicaragua also got some of its T-55s from Cuba at the
time, as well. Cuba replaced these with an order for 100 T-72M1 MBTs - can't say if they are in SR2020 or not, as I've not played Cuba yet.

Nicaraguans are still are flying a single squadron each of Mig-23BM Flogger-B, Mig-19S and Mig-17F aircraft. While they are no longer a Communist country, there remains some influence of former Sandinasta leftists, both inside and outside the government. But, its a poor country
and will have a rough time in any effort at replacing these combat jets at anything like 1-to-1 basis with surplus Western aircraft....and, they really don't need them given the size of El Salvador and Honduran air forces.

[geminif4ucorsair]

Krafty said, "As well as the ability to produce air to surface and surface to air missiles (which cuba currently produces for itself)."

I'm quite sure that Cuba does not now or ever produced SA-2, SA-3, SA-6 or even SA-9 Gaskin.....they might be able to produce or have produced SA-7b Grail.....just about ever ex-Communist country did.

While I have not looked into it extensively, it might not be unreasonable to allow SA-7B Grail as Researched.....it should be.Cuba should also be able to build the 76-mm ZIS-3 artillery gun and 107-mm B-11 recoilles rifle, plus AAA: 23-mm ZPU-23-2, 37-mm M1939, 57-mm S-60;
and also OT-62 Topaz (BTR-60PK) APC - in the Game.

----------
In a seperate post, you mentioned lack of Shipyards, but that Cuba has them...well, yes it does have boat yards, but nothing that has built anything like even a Project 1041.2 Svetlyak PCS or Project 1400 Grif/Zhuk patrol boat....neither of which are in game.

The only problem with Shipyard fabrications is that there is apparently no discrimination regarding small, medium, large - they are all one size, if
one has the design and other Tech pre-requisites, you can build it (historically logical or not).

It would not be illogical if Cuba could begin the game with the Project 205U Osa II PTG and PSKR-205M Stenka PCS designs - afterall, they have been in service for some 20-years or more and know by now how they are put togther, how to repair their engines and electronics, etc.

----------

Last thought would be when you consider Cuba's neighbors, its in a very good position to begin with - except that pesky neighbor to the north! The only other country with some moderate forces is Mexico....its navy is more numerous but old. The only other navy and air force that might eventually be a challenge if Cuba wants to dominate the Caribbean, it will have to eventually deal with populated Jamaica and Dominican Republic....
while keeping the US from intervening.

My view anyway

[Krafty]

Curacao and Havana both have shipyards capable of building and manufacturing post-world war two oil powered warships. They were sufficent to build and maintain steam-liner warships for the dutch and spanish, and then destroyers and cruisers for Batista, until the revolution. The infrastructure is there, the deep water trench, the locks, the platforms, just theres no cranes, no workers, no designs, no desire...also, gitmo belongs to the united states, and that has considerable infrastructure as well. Since gitmo is gifted to cuba in the scenerio id assume it would have the facilities to build even some patrol boats...which arent very complicated to produce. A sailboat contruction company could make one. All it takes is electric torpedos and a 20mm gun. Patrol boat.

Just because they build fishing boats and maintain cruise liners now, doesnt mean in the event of war, they couldnt be commishioned to build warships.

And anyone who can produce a shoulder launched AA missile can produce a larger version that can be mounted on a vehicle. Cuba certainly produces its own missiles for its shoulder launched systems. Just because they dont doesnt mean they cant.

And yeah theres nothing much the game can do to abstract alot of these things...I dont think Cuba can or does produce an MBT of any sort. Heck the revolutionary armies armored corp was a single tank for quite a few years. But you can build them at an army base. Thats pretty silly too. So it goes both ways, you lose some stuff but gain other stuff.

Theres probably a better way to do alot of these things but I dont blame anyone for the way it is...its IMPOSSIBLE to model everything in full detail...gotta make choices.

[geminif4ucorsair]

* Cuban SU-100 at military museum *

Over the years since the 1962 Cuban missile crisis, most of the armour was either T-34/85 (original tank delivery to supplement the army's small number of M3 Stuart light tanks), later augmented by @ 450 T-54/55 and 350 T-62s. That is still a sizable armour force for an island country...
apparently the T-34/85 is no longer in Supreme Ruler and for some reason, the T-72M1s bought in the Nineties have not been included in the orbat?

In addition, the game gives (and allows production) of the PT-76 amphibious light tank, and the army has quantities of BMP-1 IFV and BTR-60PK and OT-62 Topaz (BTR-50PK) APCs.

Compared to rivals, including Mexico, it makes for clearly the strongest Caribbean military force....you just have to play to keep the U.S. off you back!

[geminif4ucorsair]

Since you have a tendancy to want to return to Cold War days and their OOB (orbat), this might be of interest - the Cuban OOB at time of October 1962 missile crisis:

Soviet Nuclear Weapons
- 6 Model 407N free-fall bombs for Il-28 bombers
- 12 Model 901A4 warheads for R-13 SSMs
- 80 warheads for FKR-1 Meteor cruise missiles

[List according to "The Kremlin's Nuclear Sword: The Rise and Fall of Russia's Strategic Nuclear Forces, 1945-2000", by Steven Zaloga.
Another highly recommended book is just released is: One Minute to Midnight - Kennedy, Khrushchev and Castro on the Brink, by Michael Dobbs , Alfred A. Knoph publishers; US$28.95. Until you read this, you
cannot image how close the world came to nuclear war....Dobbs book heavily loaded with declassified documents from the event.]

V-VS
Note: all Soviet aircraft wore full FAR markings.

- 134, 11 Il-14s, at San Antonio AB

- ? BAP, 48 Il-28s, at Holguin and San Julian (never activated: most – including six A-wired examples were still crated as of late October; a number of Il-28s were Hungarian Air Force machines, sent back to Russia for maintenance, but shipped from there to Cuba; some of the Il-28s probably belonged to an unknown “Mine-Torpedo Regiment” of the Soviet Naval Aviation)

- 213 IAP, MiG-21F-13, at Santa Clara AB

- 234 IAP; MiG-21PF, at San Antonio AB

- 437 , Mi-4, at Mariel AB

? Air-Defence Division, including:
- SA-2 site No.1 San Antonio AB

? Coastal Defence Division, including:
- 561 Frontal Cruise Missile Rgt., FKR-1 AShMs based in the Mariel zone (west of Havanna)

- 584 Frontal Cruise Missile Rgt. FKR-1 AShMs based in the Mayari Arriba (near Guantanamo)

(These two units established at least seven FKR-sites on the mainland Cuba, and one at the Isle of Pines. Their sites were semi-protected, in revetments, but their radars were in the open.).


--------------------------


Soviet Army

- 74th MRR, Luna/FROG-4, at Artemisa

- 106th MRR; at Holguin

- 134th MRR, Luna/FROG-4, at Manauga

- 146th MRR, Luna/FROG-4, at Santa Clara

Except the 106th MRR, all units were equipped with nuclear warheads. The release authority was pre-delegated, but this decision was revoked on 22 October, after which all Soviet nuclear weapons on Cuba were put under control of Moscow.

Soviets expected that the US garrison in Guantanamo Bay was reinforced to 18.000, with the entire 2nd Marine Division being deployed there.


---------------------------------


Soviet Navy

- B-4 (possible ident.: C-21), Foxtrot-class, skipper: Rurik Ketov

- B-36 (ident.: C-26), Foxtrot-class, skipper: Aleksei Dubivko

- B-59 (ident.: C-19), Foxtrot-class, skipper: Valentin Savitsky

- B-75, Zulu-class, skipper: Nikolai Natnenkov

- B-88 (unknown if detected), Foxtrot-class, skipper: ? (patrol area: Pearl Harbour)

- B-130 (ident.: C-18); Foxtrot-class (hull No. 945), skipper: Nikolai Shumkov


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Fuerza Aérea Revolucionaria
Note: most of the following units were in the process of establishment and training. Soviet MiGs were flying in full FAR markings.
- ? Escuadron de Caza, MiG-15bis/MiG-15UTI, at San Antonio de los Banos AB and Santa Clara AB

- ? Escuadron de Caza, MiG-15bis/MiG-15UTI, at Camaguey AB and Holguin AB

- ? Escuadron de Caza, MiG-19P, at San Antonio AB

- ? Escuadron de ReconocimientoMiG-15bis/MiG-15Rbis, at Ciudad Libertad AB

- ? Escuadron de Enlace, Let L-60, at Ciudad Libertad AB

- ? Escuadron de Transporte, Il-14, at San Antonio AB

- ? Escuadron de Helicopteros, Mi-1/Mi-4, at Baracoa and Ciudad Libertad
-----------------

[geminif4ucorsair]

Krafty say's: "Curacao and Havana both have shipyards capable of building and manufacturing post-world war two oil powered warships. They were sufficent to build and maintain steam-liner warships for the dutch and spanish, and then destroyers and cruisers for Batista, until the revolution. The infrastructure is there, the deep water trench, the locks, the platforms, just theres no cranes, no workers, no designs, no desire...also, gitmo belongs to the united states, and that has considerable infrastructure as well. Since gitmo is gifted to cuba in the scenerio id assume it would have the facilities to build even some patrol boats...which arent very complicated to produce. A sailboat contruction company could make one. All it takes is electric torpedos and a 20mm gun. Patrol boat.

Just because they build fishing boats and maintain cruise liners now, doesnt mean in the event of war, they couldnt be commishioned to build warships. "

I don't have the "keys to the kingdom" - but it appears there is a designer view that not every shipyard gets included in SR2020...this is probably the result of:
1 - distinction regarding size of facilities and maybe past military ship building history;
2 - balance within the region, ie Caribbean, Africa, etc.

Have discussed this before with the designers and lobbied for a differing system - one that differenciates between size - ie, shipbuilding capacity in tons. No luck.

The SR2020 appears to be based on the premise: no size limit, IF you have several pre-requisites (ie, Tech Tree items - which will be several if building something other than a missile patrol boat or corvette), various
civil and military technologies. Whatever the size and design might be, you might have to have complete R on Sonar, Improved Radar, Guided Missiles and Anti-Ship Missiles, Electronic Fire Control....just to mention basic's, without more advanced Stealth, Naval Catapult Systemsetc.

Second, you need the Ship design (Project 205U Osa II PTG, PC-725 Sariwon PC, or Project 206M Shtorm/Turya PTH.....or up the size and sophistication from there). So if you are Cuba, you probably already possess a better shipbuilding capability than your nemisis counter-parts in the Dominican Republic, Jamaica or elsewhere among the Caribbean players (even Mexico).

That you did not get a Shipyard in the infrastructure is the same reason others in the region did not - insufficient size and experience, my guess.
None are certaintly active at Havana or Cienfuegos today to warrant....
in the end, its a design criteria.

Whether I agree or not is mute. I would rather see a system based on relative shipyard capacity that the current one....where the mere size of NG - Newport News Shipbuilding (with its CVN and SSN building ability) is
reflected, compared to a Santiago (Chile) shipyard ability, that if the design of a particular ship (a CVN!) is there and all the pre-requsities met - you can build it! The reality is, that it is not that simple.....

My view anway.

If you are given the accomplished Research - just as with military vehicles and aircraft - then you can build the design from the beginning.

[Krafty]

Fortunately building your own naval fabrication yards is pretty cheap, and with some shrewd politiking you can get your hands on some decent designs...the Cuban navy already includes a few missile frigates sporting newly created cuban built, french designed exocet missiles (im gonna pay the falklands a visit with these!).

Its a shame the AI wont build up to put up much of a fight. Belize and Trinidad/Tobago have already fallen....

[geminif4ucorsair]

Well, see now, Cuban forces are not totally ill and apparently have recovered somewhat their combat experiences achieved in the '80s in Angola and elsewhere in Africa!

Bloody well be careful if we play each other and I'm the Domincan Republic, mate.

Write up events and post them in an After Action's folder....would be interesting.

[Kanaric]

The russian bombers in this game are underpowered, ESPECIALLY the TU-160

[MaxRiga]

The russian bombers in this game are underpowered, ESPECIALLY the TU-160

it's like in most American games ...
people in America are mostly under Discovery Channel influence ))

[killerflood]

umm you do know this is a canadian made game...right?

[MaxRiga]

umm you do know this is a canadian made game...right?

yes, i know, but it doesn't really change anything, most of canadians are watching american discovery channel

[Balthagor]

...yes, i know, but it doesn't really change anything, most of canadians are watching american discovery channel

That doesn't mean we have all the same ideas as they do, that's a somewhat narrow view of Canadians and me in particular (since most of the equipment file work is mine). Just because I get some unit stats wrong doesn't mean I have a low opinion of Europeans or Russians. You know what they say about assumptions...