resources + synthetic resources

[Cerber]

Do resources building need electricity ? In real worl for example coal mines need a lot electricity - they use more electric energy than small town (not to mention about mining and procesing metalas - copper or aluminium).

And another question about synthetic plants - fuel and composites.
Do they need input resources ? For example today synthetic fuels are made of coal (actually a lot of coal )

What about biofuels ? Today it haven`t much sense (in economical and technical means - read about in-out energy ratio fo biofuels) to produce them but it might be a good option because of political reasons.

And I hope that in SR 2020 oil could be a real problem for countries, because in SR 2010 on the most maps was easy to get your country self sufficent.

[George Geczy]

This is another area where I think we have made great new additions with SR2020 - the resource relationships have been increased, and we now allow multiple raw inputs to generate a product.

For example, for petroleum, you know have a number of choices - of course, you can build and old-fashioned oil well if you have the stuff in the ground. But you can also build a Coal gasification plant (raw materials coal and electricity), or a Bio Fuels plant (raw materials Agri and electricity), etc.

However we do not directly use electricity in raw materials mining (coal mines, oil fields, etc). But the use of multiple raw materials for Synthetic product types really creates a nice system.

-- George.

[Cerber]

This are very good news It`s always good to have some choices.

The truth is that just now with extremely high prices of oil those alternatives has an economic sense, and who knows if the prices won`t higher :(

Producting gasoline from coal was always implicated by politics. In history only 2 countries produced big amount of fuel from coal :
- III Reich (Germany) during II World War (the reasons were obvious, the didn`t have natural oil resources and the were sorrounded by enemies)
- South Africa due to embargo (the reason was apartheid), today their company SASSOL is known as only company in the world which has enough experimence to do the conversion in efficent way. However one thing has to be remembered: converting coal into gasoline produces enormous amounts of carbon dioxide (CO2).

Bio fuels has their own problems - there is needed a lot of energy to convert plants into fuel. Another thing is that biofuels rise cost of food.
I read some simulations about bio fuels. If USA turn all the corn they produce into bio fuels, they will satisfy 20% of teir fuel needs.

[Gargantou]

Another thing is that biofuels rise cost of food.

IMHO that is overplayed, the rise of the cost of food isn't just because of biofuels, it's because of a generally more economically insecure environment, just look at how much NASDAQ went down yesterday.

[nghtmre15]

Another thing is that biofuels rise cost of food.

IMHO that is overplayed, the rise of the cost of food isn't just because of biofuels, it's because of a generally more economically insecure environment, just look at how much NASDAQ went down yesterday.

Indeed. Food costs have only been mildly affected by the use of biofuels. The real issues lie in other fields, such as the varying efficiencies of crops when converted to biofuel (ex. corn vs. sugarcane), energy use in the harvesting and creation of biofuel (often takes as much if not more oil to plant, raise and harvest crops and then convert them to fuel than you actually get back in biofuel), and the consumption of other limited natural resources like fresh water.

[Gargantou]

Yeah not to mention the poor agricultural techniques in third world nations that have made prices soar over there, causing higher demand from the populations there, driving the worldwide prices up.

[tkobo]

Is there a difference between fuel and oil yet ?

Or is oil still used as the standard for fuel ?

[nghtmre15]

Is there a difference between fuel and oil yet ?

Or is oil still used as the standard for fuel ?

I would assume petroleum-derived fuels would be what is generally referred to when using the word 'fuel', unless you refer to a particular type of alternative fuel as I did above or are clearly using the term as a blanket for a wide variety of fuels. Particularly in the context of a military-focused game like 2020, I would think the word 'fuel' would default to 'gasoline' unless otherwise specified.

[George Geczy]

'Petroleum' is our default fuel term, though it does encompass both regular fuel oils (gasoline, diesel, etc) as well as Natural Gas.

Then the various Petroleum production technologies allow building facilities for the synthetic fuels, such as Bio Fuels and Coal Gasification. We also have a generic 'Synthetic Fuel' facility which is meant to simulate Hydrogen and other technologies (generating fuel from electricity).

And yes, South Africa starts the game with Coal Gasification facilities already in place.

-- George.

[tkobo]

Its probably not gonna happen, an its probably something people would say "adds to much complexity", but id really like to see fuel as a seperate resource type than oil.

Keeping them the same, cuts out of the real world based equation the whole refinery issue.

And doesnt really allow for the whole "electric engine/motor" route.

[nghtmre15]

Its probably not gonna happen, an its probably something people would say "adds to much complexity", but id really like to see fuel as a seperate resource type than oil.

Keeping them the same, cuts out of the real world based equation the whole refinery issue.

And doesnt really allow for the whole "electric engine/motor" route.

Oil is a type of fuel, so if you're going to be breaking the category of fuel up into 'oil' and 'alternatives', you're just creating another issue: namely, the different types of alternatives. How does hydrogen fuel relate to ethanol in terms of ratios/efficiency/etc.? All you do is create a cycle wherein every type of alternative fuel must be given its own category, and although I am all in favor of adding complexity and nuance to the economic system of SR, I do not want to have a game with only 20 resources and have half of them be different types of fuel.

I understand your concern about the refinery issue, but I feel that any sort of benefit gained from differentiating among future fuel sources is lost when considering the cycle of superfluous complexity that it would bring about. Using petroleum as a catchall for fuel and having the alternative fuel plants generate petroleum at varying efficiencies is by far the best approach for a game of this type.

[George Geczy]

To some extent, the 'Petroleum' resource in the game IS a somewhat generic 'fuel' entry, which is why we allow the Synthetic production of fuel to use only electricity as a raw material (ie, Hydrogen production).

We also have a number of techs (fuel cells, etc) that reduce the overall consumer and industrial usage of petroleum/fuel.

Without making things hugely complicated (for very little gameplay benefit), this is a good overall solution.

Of course, one of the early ideas that we discussed was having raw materials actually have to be 'connected' - ie, an oil well needs a pipeline to get the oil to your cities and industries, a power plant needs transmission lines, etc - however, again, a lot of added complexity.

-- George.

[BigStone]

Have to agree both with you ..... but i still would love to see refeneries in the game.

Nice targets i say