some questions

Imports, Exports, Taxes & Social Spending... discuss these topics here.

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georgios
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some questions

Post by georgios »

There sure are a lot of factors in the whole "game equation" but what are they good for when you dont know what they are good for.
I tried to get some information on what some of the sliders actually do on the wiki but to be honest, its of no use. Many pages are empty and most explanations are no explanations at all.
For example: World market opinion. It says it is influenced by some other factors, you could guess, but it doesnt say what the effects of a good/bad WMO are.
Same goes for social spending, it basically says they improve domestic approval, immigration/emmigration births/deaths. Well, really? Infrastructure improves supply and lowers production cost? How much? What are the different effects of the various tax classes? Whats tourism exactly do?
There is an effect of education rating on research efficiency, I guessed that, but how much? Is it better to spend 10m/day on education or directly on research eff.?
Whats frustrating is that you can intuitively figure out what effects what, but to make an adjustment it is crucial to know how big of an effect there is.
Like, Im not pumping 100m into ecology to have a 1% increase in tourism that yields me 5m income (what does tourism do again?). Would be nice to know and see the connections.
What does funding a foreign country change in their stance against us?
I could go on for hours, I just would like to know if there are some detailed written explanations? I know there are some videos, but then I need figures and numbers, after all that is a grand strategy game and as all these options are in the game they must have an effect and that can be explained in detail.
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Ruges
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Re: some questions

Post by Ruges »

Simple answer is its to much data.
georgios
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Re: some questions

Post by georgios »

What do you mean? Should I post these questions one by one?

I created this thread to start a discussion on the topic "game equation"
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Balthagor
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Re: some questions

Post by Balthagor »

He means most of the answers are not one value but a complex formula that exists only in the code.
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georgios
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Re: some questions

Post by georgios »

And how can a player optimise his strategy?
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Ruges
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Re: some questions

Post by Ruges »

Play with the settings till you get the desired result. The game really has a sort of butterfly effect. One of the things I have suggested many times is to start a new game and just start playing with all of the possible settings. Extremely max and min them to see what the results are. do a bunch of stupid things that you would never do in a regular game.
georgios
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Re: some questions

Post by georgios »

If anyone knows posts with other player's results please submit the links.
georgios
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Re: some questions

Post by georgios »

Is there a standart amount of money circulating around the world?

Is there new money created as regions expand their economy?

If we sum the treasuries of all regions plus their invested in buildings and units capital would we find a constant amount of wealth? Are there limits to this wealth?

Positive inflation means that your treasury should be greater than it is now (local currency price drops) and negative that it should be smaler (local currency price rises)?

Money spent in social service is deposited in people's pockets (at times when tax < spending) and is disposable for future taxes (for a condition that tax > spending)?
Praylak
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Re: some questions

Post by Praylak »

Alright, I'm gonna take a stab at this. I have a great deal of experience with the game, but this doesn't make me an expert on it, so don't take my answers as the final word. I'll try not to repeat what you can already find elsewhere on this forum.

World opinion has negative and positive factors. Try to think common sense like, if its logical in real life, its probably somehow modeled in the game. For example... If you start building a bunch of military fabs, its obvious to your neighbours your arming yourself, and they tend to find that very unsettling. Squeezing your populace with austerity through insane taxation or despriving them of social services also has negative effects. Flipping these around has a positive effect, low taxes, high social spending, etc.

Some important observations on taxes:

First I should identify what the business class actually represents because its not obvious at first glance. Business tax effects mainly the non-corporate capacity and production of your basic commodities, such as food, water, and timber. Although there can be corporate versions of these commodites as well (represented by the visible structures that you can actually select and build on the map), the business end has only output without the visible structure. To see this abstract output in action, simply select a commodity like water in your production tab, click to build a water works and just hover the cursor over a potential water providing hex that has no structures, like a river or lake. Nothing there but yet you see an output number. Think of this as the business level of your nation as the rural farmers, the small but many low level operations.

Taxes, corporate or business effect total capacity, either reducing, expanding, or stagnating it. Higher taxation retards growth in capacity, the opposite is true if you lower it.

Low income taxes seems to effect to a larger extent the domestic purchasing of your basic commodities (food, water, etc). Low income people need to buy cars and fridges too (consumer goods), but to a lesser extent that High income people do.

Tourism: The percent is a bonus income that is effected by the general well to do of your nation. To some extent, culture and law enforcement spending seem to have apparent effects on it. This percent is boosted further as its applied to the amount of tourist attractions you have, or may not have. IE: Rome having three of these structures will get a bigger kick back than say Uganda that has zero attractions.

Recommended education spending is optimal for research efficiency. Your not gonna see a big difference from this unless you make dramatic adjustments such as cranking it to absurd levels or vice versa. Even then the effect to cost or savings ratio is too limited in my experience. Ya ok maybe over 10 years that extra 1% will cut hundreds of days off the many projects one will research, but at the cost of an extra ?millions a day is it worth it? Only you can answer that. Theres better ways of increase efficiency in this area, such as specific technologies and tech level.

Money:
Standard amount of money, I'd say no. Its spent as needed, printed as needed. The people don't save, you either get it through taxation, or domestic sales. Since the currency value is the same in all countries (as stated in the manual due to the collapse), its of little consequence. Economies grow or shrink depending on many factors, all of which are logical.

No consistency in wealth. The only limits to wealth is unemployment and inflation.

Inflation is covered in detail in many other threads, but your description is not accurate. A positive indicator means growth, if your outspending that growth your treasury could very well go negative. For a real world example, just pick any developed country. LOL!.

Money spent in social services results in a positive effect for its category and applied to your people. Money spent in social services hires the necessary people, associated devices, and infranstructure, etc, to provide the rating indicated. That rating goes on to give benefits depending on the category.
georgios
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Re: some questions

Post by georgios »

So if social spending is greater than taxes where goes the money that region loses?
CheefCoach
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Re: some questions

Post by CheefCoach »

To the people. Don't forget, you are the goverment.
georgios
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Re: some questions

Post by georgios »

Is this money lost from the economy or they can return it if taxes increase above spending?

Is there an account showing how much money is stored in people's pockets, so how much we can drain if we increase taxes?
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Anthropoid
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Re: some questions

Post by Anthropoid »

georgios wrote:Is this money lost from the economy or they can return it if taxes increase above spending?

Is there an account showing how much money is stored in people's pockets, so how much we can drain if we increase taxes?
I have limited experience with the game, but in my observation (and repeating what Praylak said above) when your people have 'more' (e.g., when taxes are low, and govt spending on social services are high) then they will tend to (a) consume more (water, food, electricity, petroleum [or at least its refined products]) and (b) the production to which they contribute (all of them?) will increase in output/efficiency.

Most games like this are gimicky and do not very well reflect the realworld complexities of national and international economics. Even this game is obviously a drastic simplification.

But on the whole, I get the impression that it is a remarkably 'logical' representation of how a national economy works. Meaning, do what would tend to make economic sense in the real world and it will probably work in game. So for example, LOWERING taxes, INCREASING spending, and LOWERING domestic sales tax, in the short-run might reduce your bottom-line, but in the long-run should increase societal wealth and thus increase national wealth from the various taxes as well as rates of productivity.

The one thing that I have so far noticed (playing as Egypt) that I find rather 'immersion' breaking as far as economics: Saudi Arabia just keeps getting richer and richer. Last time I gouged them they had something like 900B in their treasury. As a result of this, and the fact that they like me as their ally, I've been able to sell them Consumer Goods at insane markups, and make progressively more and more with each sales. The last time I sold them ~200K units of Consumer Goods I think I made about $70B.
Is there a standart amount of money circulating around the world?
I very much doubt that this is the case for the simple reason that, that is not how it works in RL. There is no limit on the units of dollars that can exist, though the artificical introdutcion of more dollars into the economy can of course have influences on the national and international economy.
Is there new money created as regions expand their economy?
In my observation: yes, there must be. I have only anecdotally observed but, on the whole, in my game as of 2026, some countries have increased their wealth to fabulous levels, hundreds of billions of dollars in their treasuries. Add to that they have been (presumably) building units, and researching techs and yes, the total amount of money 'in game' does seem to have increased. Quite a few nations (the more disadvantaged ones at start) have not lost or gained much in their treasury, and some have obviously lost a great deal primarily because they have been hard hit in war.
If we sum the treasuries of all regions plus their invested in buildings and units capital would we find a constant amount of wealth? Are there limits to this wealth?
My guess is: no limits. There is no limit to the amount of wealth that could hypothetically be generated in the realworld, so why would their be in game?
Positive inflation means that your treasury should be greater than it is now (local currency price drops) and negative that it should be smaler (local currency price rises)?
I think you have a reversed conception of 'inflation.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation
In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.[1] When the general price level rises, each unit of currency buys fewer goods and services.
Positive inflation means that your currency is worth less relative to the cost of goods. So, when inflation is high it will _tend_ to reduce your revenue whereas when it is low it will _tend_ to increase your revenue; though I doubt that those effects on inflation are very 'direct,' I suspect that is the effect it will tend to have. If each unit of currency can buy more then that is a good thing for the holders of that currency be it a govt or a segment of a population.
Money spent in social service is deposited in people's pockets (at times when tax < spending) and is disposable for future taxes (for a condition that tax > spending)?
I confess, itt does raise the question of whether the amount in citizens pockets is somehow represented in the code :D In my observation for how the game works, there must be some value in the code that roughly represents this, because if you change your settings to improve the wealth of your people, you tend to see productivity and consumption (and consequent taxation) go up.
georgios
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Re: some questions

Post by georgios »

I have noticed that gdp changes opposite to the treasury. If treasury rises gdp drops.

GDPC * population = civilian treasury

civilian treasury + state treasury = total region treasury

civilian treasury is a form of region's wealth because civilians can only with their state exchange money.
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Anthropoid
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Re: some questions

Post by Anthropoid »

georgios wrote:I have noticed that gdp changes opposite to the treasury. If treasury rises gdp drops.
Sometimes yes. In the short-run, changes to your economy that increased GDP may well lead to temporary reductionsin your treasury. But if you are patient, those settings are viable and sustainable, and you leave things for a while, you should start to see your treasury increase again, if your taxes are not set too low and spending is not set too high.

My rules of thumb are as follows:
1. NEVER reduce spending below what is recommended.
2. Sometimes increase spending to boost approval / citizen well-being
3. Rarely ever reduce military salaries or research below recommended levels
4. Sometimes increase both military and research spending.
5. Focus on state-department transactions as a primary form of regional revenue, whether that is selling tech, selling commodities or finished products. In the case of Egypt, water and petro are what I focus on at start, with the goal to become a major Consumer Good exporter within a couple years.
6. Get Free Trade and Criminal Extradition with more-or-less everyone: that is a lot of ~$100M treaty fees to pay out but I have found that my economy does fine with lots of Free Trade agreements. I suppose it must make transactions more probable if not more efficient or lucrative.
7. Generally tax at less than 35% with a long-term goal to lower taxes as low as possible.

In my longest play-through so far (mid-year 2026) I believe I had taxes down to about 22%, and all spending was above recommended. Despite this, I had paid off all ~$380B of Egypt's debt, I had ~18 each of land and air fabs, plus about 11 naval fabs, I was net exporter of everything except uranium and coal, and I had $600B in my treasury with GDP ~$11,000 if memory serves.
GDPC * population = civilian treasury
Yeah, the amount of money your population has is probably very closely related to GDP, but it might not be exactly the number that is used in determining tax revenues. You probably were aware, but just in case: Gross Domestic Product per Capita is what that is referring to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product
Gross domestic product (GDP) is the market value of all officially recognized final goods and services produced within a country in a given period of time. GDP per capita is often considered an indicator of a country's standard of living;[2][3] GDP per capita is not a measure of personal income (See Standard of living and GDP). Under economic theory, GDP per capita exactly equals the gross domestic income (GDI) per capita (See Gross domestic income).
I think you'll notice that if you lower all your regions productivity to zero (lock your Minister so he cannot adjust them) and then wait a few days to a week, you will see your GDPC go down. It will cumulatively go down the more that you keep the settings lower than optimal to meet demand and keep all your population productively employed; although it might also go down even if you have production at 100%.
civilian treasury + state treasury = total region treasury

civilian treasury is a form of region's wealth because civilians can only with their state exchange money.
Hmmm, I hadn't thought of it that way, but yeah, it probably is basically true. Still, they've got to buy product and pay taxes for you as the leader to get what is in their pockets!
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