pipeline opportunity

[amires]

Amires,

... You can not threaten someone with embargo or war, so threatening to stop sending them oil etc. is not really an option. ...

-Light

Why to limit opportunities, so game does not become interesting, it is a pity.

[amires]

It will be possible mode for some change in game?
Thanks.

[Lightbringer]

The Devil, my friend, is in the details. As in, this game keeps track of a God-awful amount of them already.

First off, just to be clear, I am not one of the game designers. I am explaining the limited amount I know because they are busy as heck making 2020. This forum is good for that though, us players do not mind stepping up and helping out. The goats can correct my numbers, but I am going to give some examples of why certain things can not be squeezed into this game.

20,000-30,000 battalions. As the game goes along... 50,000... 100,000. The computer is receiving questions from every single one of these units every single time the clock ticks. Do I see any enemies? Do my standing orders allow/require/deny me attacking them? (range, type of unit and proper attack value and movement are all also considered) Should I move to a different hex if allowed? Am I getting enough supplies?

10,000-20,000 City/Factory/Resource hexes. Same deal, every "turn" they are asking multiple questions and sending information on multiple conditions.

1,000,000 hexes. Yes, the very hexes themselves ask questions and send information through your computer as you play. Empty hexes in Siberia are still watching for enemy units. Hexes in the highest peaks of the Himilayas are asking if their supply rating is going up or down. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Players who have very top end computers have often asked why the game slows down as it goes along. It is because there are more and more units added to all these other starting "units". A computer you and I can afford can not easily keep track of all this stuff. Adding another complete set of information, questions, and details to keep track of and adjust, like supply rates through a threatened pipeline would bog the entire game down.

I agree that negative diplomacy would be interesting, but it is not necessary for the game to be fun and very complex. Same goes for a more detailed supply chain model. Higher end diplomacy and uber detailed supply would use up a good chunk of an entirely new game's processing power by themselves, unfortunately 2010/2020 already has a full plate.

-Light

(Edit: I almost forgot. The game is also keeping track of complex sets of details for every region/country in play. From an in depth economy, to exacting sets of interactions between every region and every other region. Not to mention each country's population stats...happiness, education, size, employment and income and how they are spending. Etc.)

[Balthagor]

thanks for helping with this Light, I've been busy with work and not had much time to review the posts. If you get any specific questions you need me to answer bold the line and I'll watch for it.

[Lightbringer]

No problem Chris, exactly how many hexes are on the map...by the way?

-Light

[Balthagor]

the map is 1850 hexes across.

[amires]

What for so to panic? The idea of introduction of some moments of transportation game which made less than 1 % of system of trade and diplomacy has been offered to developers. Here did not ask to create 50,000 or 100,000 units, but to make/enrich a script of mutual relations of the states on the basis of power resources. Please do not do of the fly of the elephant.

[Balthagor]

I'm sorry, but I did not understand your last post.

[amires]

Sorry, answer for Lightbringer.

[Feltan]

Sorry, answer for Lightbringer.

Luckily, you speak Light's language. I'm sure he can tranlate what you meant for the rest of us.

Regards,
Feltan

[Lightbringer]

I believe he is saying that he is not suggesting a major new segment of the game, but only a small addendum to the trade department.

Amires-

The problem is not keeping track of trade between two specific countries. It is keeping track of how that trade is effected by attacks and such if you portray that trade as a concrete real "location" or pipeline. Do you spend millions and millions of dollars on a line on the map that can be destroyed by any small attack? The entire game would soon devolve into a series of oil pipline attacks, and soon you would have no trade at all instead of trade being too easy to conduct during a war situation.

While your idea is very realistic (energy resource logistics are a weak point of industrial nations), implementing them would change the entire game. The focus would shift away from developing your own country and perhaps conquering others to simply trying to protect your pipelines long enough to stay functional and research other sources of energy. While that might be a fun struggle to play, 90% of the units, research, economics, politics, etc. of 2010/2020 would become pointless. It would become something like Railroad Tycoon with oil pipelines instead of train tracks.

It is a great basic concept for a game. Just a different game than 2010/2020.

-Light

Edit: I meant to mention that {unless I am sorely mistaken} you can always negotiate specific trade agreements with different countries to either supply them with oil/coal/etc. or buy your supply from them. There is nothing stopping you from buying your oil through a "pipeline", you just will not see it on the map. Likewise, if you want to wipe out an enemy's supply, you can always corner the market by military or economic means. It will just be harder than firing a few missiles each week at a pipeline.

[Balthagor]

Thanks Light, you're still helping a lot by explaining some of the limitations of the game.

To be clear (once again) the game will not be using/supporting any type of pipelines for transfer of goods. When you sell goods to another region, they are transfered behind the scenes. If you default on an a scheduled trade (such as ongoing oil over time) this affects your ratings with other countries and the UN.

[amires]

I correctly understood you, the system sales of resources will have the political and diplomatic area, excepting the graphic pipeline on the map?
I have a question, two countries, the first output power and it wishes them to sell we’ll name "A", another wishes them to buy we’ll name "C", between these countries there is other state name "B", but it is hostile to the state which wishes to receive power country "C".
The state "C" has only one transport way and it through the hostile country "B", the country “C” has no output on the sea (enclave)....., have not got confused? And so, how the country "C" will receive a power? Thanks.

[Feltan]

Here are some suggestions for using an automated translator. Use short sentences. Use precise words. Otherwise your statements are difficult to understand.

http://translate.google.com/translate_t

Ниже приведены некоторые предложения по использованию автоматизированной переводчик. Используйте короткие предложения. Используйте точные слова. В противном случае ваши заявления, которые трудно понять.



Regards,
Feltan

[Balthagor]

I correctly understood you, the system sales of resources will have the political and diplomatic area, excepting the graphic pipeline on the map?
I have a question, two countries, the first output power and it wishes them to sell we’ll name "A", another wishes them to buy we’ll name "C", between these countries there is other state name "B", but it is hostile to the state which wishes to receive power country "C".
The state "C" has only one transport way and it through the hostile country "B", the country “C” has no output on the sea (enclave)....., have not got confused? And so, how the country "C" will receive a power? Thanks.

There is no restrictions in the game on transfer of products between regions. Australia could sell electricity to Sweden. We did make some attempts to look at making this more realistic and limiting who can sell to who but to track this requires pipelines/power lines and the code involved is much too complex. We are not doing any pipelines or power lines. You can only use resources as part of diplomacy if you own the resource.