Development idea - Starting Number Groups

Post by **Balthagor** » May 02 2007

I have a new idea Iâ€™ve been considering and thought Iâ€™d get some feedback on it. We use number groups currently in the game but when you start the game all the groups are empty. This is similar to what you would find in other RTS games however in other games you usually begin with nothing more than a base and maybe one or two construction units. Since we have opening inventories of units not built by the player we could pre-assign number groups so that when you start any region in any block, you know right away that group 5 contains some interceptors. Thoughts?

[BG notes: Task 6756]

Feltan · Post by **Feltan** » May 02 2007

Chris,

The numbered groups are, for me, a totally non-used feature. While you are correct about RTS games -- I have never considered SR2010 a true RTS as defined in the market. Your product is not a click-fest; one does not need rapid grouping to respond to an unexpected rush by the AI or human player.

Useful for 2020? My expectation is that I won't use groups in 2020 either. However, I understand my style of play may not be the average and others may find it useful.

Regards,
Feltan

Post by **Balthagor** » May 02 2007

Feltan wrote:... one does not need rapid grouping to respond to an unexpected rush by the AI or human player...

In general this is true, but in some multiplayer situations or missions it could be useful.

But thanks for the feedback, we'll see what others say...

Draken · Post by **Draken** » May 02 2007

I would rather see the option to deploy the units where I want them at the begining of the scenario...

Unit Groups haven't been very useful to me: too many units and too few groups is the main reason (each of my division has about 25 btns and usualy I have more than ten divs so...). The only way I use groups is with air units, for quick reaction forces and resupply helo stacks...

Unless, of course, you are planning to increase the number of groups somehow...

Legend · Post by **Legend** » May 02 2007

To expand on Chris' idea a bit further... the idea is for new players to start a game and if the wish, press #4 and get a few tanks - instead of looking around the map. Of course if a region has no tanks it would not have any in that group... and it would not necessarily include all tanks that a region owns... just a few, to start the player with a few number groups assigned.

To answer your post, Draken, I don't think pre-placing groups will happen, at least not as part of the default way to play the game. The map editor may allow you to move units around that are already placed and save these starting locations to a particular file to be used in-game. If you take over a country as a new leader you will probably have to move your military around the old fashion way since instant matter transporters aren't invented by the year 2020.

We are also trying to make the game more approachable so having a player place their units at the start of the game may not help this cause.

As for additional number groups... we do have a number of ideas being tossed around the "design department" to help better manage large numbers of units. Perhaps we'll start a new thread to continue the discussion.

Any further thoughts about Chris' idea of starting with a few number groups that are assigned for the player ahead of time?

Lightbringer · Post by **Lightbringer** » May 02 2007

If you are suggesting segregating unit types into groups to start each scenario, it might be useful. I, like Feltan have no use this function at present. I can, however, imagine the usefulness of sending all of a certain type of unit to be sold. Instead of having to hunt down and individually order each garrison infantry in this manner, I could order the entire group#1 and in one fell swoop, get rid of all Garrison, national guard, 50 year old short range AA, etc. Even if each grouping contained some units I wished to retain, it might prove easier to weed these few out of said group, than sorting every single unit at various and sundry locations. This could ease up the logistical logjam of modernization that happens with each game beginning.

Draken · Post by **Draken** » May 02 2007

Lightbringer wrote:If you are suggesting segregating unit types into groups to start each scenario, it might be useful. I, like Feltan have no use this function at present. I can, however, imagine the usefulness of sending all of a certain type of unit to be sold. Instead of having to hunt down and individually order each garrison infantry in this manner, I could order the entire group#1 and in one fell swoop, get rid of all Garrison, national guard, 50 year old short range AA, etc. Even if each grouping contained some units I wished to retain, it might prove easier to weed these few out of said group, than sorting every single unit at various and sundry locations. This could ease up the logistical logjam of modernization that happens with each game beginning.

But you can already do this without group numbers... Just select 1 Garrison an click on the "select all units of the same type" button (if they are deployed....).

In my opinion, the main limitation of the groups is that you only have 10, and that is not enough (for me at least) in medium to big scenarios...

If you, Goats, decide to add this default unit groupping, please add an option to remove all units from a group or make it an option controlled from the game lobby...

Post by **Balthagor** » May 02 2007

Draken wrote:...If you, Goats, decide to add this default unit groupping, please add an option to remove all units from a group or make it an option controlled from the game lobby...

I can't see a need for this, you overwrite a group simply by assigning the number to new units. If we pre-assign units to #5 and you want to use #5 simply pick your units and use <Ctrl+5>. The intention is not to make these groups persistent.

Draken · Post by **Draken** » May 02 2007

Balthagor wrote:
Draken wrote:...If you, Goats, decide to add this default unit groupping, please add an option to remove all units from a group or make it an option controlled from the game lobby...
I can't see a need for this, you overwrite a group simply by assigning the number to new units. If we pre-assign units to #5 and you want to use #5 simply pick your units and use <Ctrl+5>. The intention is not to make these groups persistent.

Wouldn't that just add the selected unit to group? As I said I don't use groups much....

Post by **Balthagor** » May 02 2007

<Ctrl+Shift+#> adds to the group, <Ctrl+#> assigns the group.

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » May 02 2007

Im sorry, i dont think im following what being suggested here.

Are you the devs asking if we the players would like to be able to pick our regions starting units from a small group of preselected groupings ?

So that if i want the region im going to play, to start out with alot of tanks, id select grouping number X.
And if i wanted the region im going to play, to start out with alot of aircraft id select grouping Y.

And that this grouping system would allow some modification on the starter forces avilable to each region at the beginning of the game ?

If so, than yes, i like it alot.

Personally, id like it if we were given a set amount of "points" and we could use those points to 'buy" exactly the units we want at the start of a game.From within the units avialable to that region of course.

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » May 02 2007

Okay, i reread the posts slower this time .

I see what your saying.
I dont see what this would actually bring to the game .

But than i dont use groups now, and i can already select all of a certain unit by simply using the system already present in the game.

Perhaps it would/ it could be used to make the AI attack in a more competant way, if the AI had preassigned response groups of mixed units that it could keep together as they moved.

Post by **Balthagor** » May 02 2007

The thought was more that if you start from Belarus and have never played it before, press 3 and you will get some of your best tanks selected (maybe 5-6) or if you press 9 you'll find a recon plane to start looking around withouth having to consult the Unit List or look around all your air bases.

Legend · Post by **Legend** » May 02 2007

Draken wrote:
In my opinion, the main limitation of the groups is that you only have 10, and that is not enough (for me at least) in medium to big scenarios...

If you, Goats, decide to add this default unit grouping, please add an option to remove all units from a group or make it an option controlled from the game lobby...

1) as mentioned we have ideas to allow more than 10 groups... but it would probably be an option that more experienced players could use.

2) "empty group" - not a bad idea. If you want to use the group for something else... you can write over the old units/replace them. But I have had the desire to empty a group several times while playing SR2010 in the past.

An additional reason for pre-grouping units - some tanks - 1 recon unit etc... is that they can be used to alert the player to certain game actions. If we leave things as is when you start a game (un-grouped), every unit would receive the same weighting for alerting the player, while having some units pre-grouped could become a bit more important. This way we may not overwhelm a player by alerting them of every single action, by starting with those units in groups, and placing their interactions a bit higher on a scale. < --- purely in the design stage at the moment.

Draken · Post by **Draken** » May 02 2007

What do you mean with "alerting the player"? Could you give an example?

Another consideration is that your pregrouping could make sense to some palyer because it fits their strategies, but it could be percived as totally wrong by others because it doesn't fit their strategies...

I would preffer seen a HIERARCHY system instead of a grouping system tho

EDIT: Fixed typo to make it more on topic