Blog - Don’t talk about religion or politics…

[Legend]

New blog by me. Have a read and then discuss it here. (if you are wondering where the other discussion thread on religion went, I accidentally deleted the thread).

http://www.supremeruler.com/blogs/?p=7

Religion is designed to give a bit more variety to regions in SR2020. It is not meant to become an entire religion model as created in other games such as CIV 4.

[BigStone]

(if you are wondering where the other discussion thread on religion went, I accidentally deleted the thread).

Hmmmm......

[Legend]

How does your post contribute to this thread? Do you doubt that I accidentally deleted it?

I moved the thread, then deleted the ghost thread - not knowing that it would also delete the moved thread...

Now, back to religion if you wish to discuss it again.

[red]

It's okay, Legend, anybody could accidentally delete a topic.

[Jan]

i'm wondering if adding religion is that important since i doubt that today there are still government and/or whole population that are still seeing the humanity through the small window of religions.

for exemple,

If my country is primarily Muslim and I attack another Muslim country third party Muslim countries may take offense, while Christian based countries may only see a slight increase in their justification to attack you. On the other hand, if you attack a region whose religion is dynamically different than your own, you may see countries that share the defenders religion take greater offense to your actions.

then what, the Christian's kingdom will launch a crusade to liberate the Holy Ground?

people are today more concerned about the whole world (mostly because they see it trough their TV at dinner ) so i don't think that a genocide would have a less impact because the civilian killed where praying, or not, faced to east.

it's maybe my european minded feeling that is talking and i know that there are other countries where people are officialy more extremist (even in the "free world"), so it would be great if other players could post their thoughts about it.

cheers,

Jan

[Feltan]

Jan,

It may indeed be you are seeing the world from a northern European point-of-view.

Let's not forget what happened in the former Yugoslavia -- a "religious" war (in certain aspects) right in the belly of Europe.

The media today tends to downplay religion quite a bit. Such an attitude is to our manifest harm. One cannot come close to understanding, for instance, the Middle East in the absence of a good grounding in Judism, Christianity and Islam.

Regards,
Feltan

[Jan]

from my very personnal point of view, i would say that at that level, things are much linked to politic than religion.

What i'm saying is that today religion have no more the power it had, both one people and states, that it had in middle ages.

PS: in Yugo, it was an ethnical war, there were opposed people that had the same religion and once again the big delay (years) before anyone (not only europe) intervened was because of political cause, nothing related to religion.

Even when politics finally deciding that something had to be made, they sent blue helmets...

Take a look at the Darfour, it's not a matter of religion, just that people are poor and have no undersoil ressources so...

cheers,

Jan

[Feltan]

Jan,

It is not religion that starts most wars. In fact, it is probably localized to certain areas. But, it is a factor. In some areas the predominant factor, in others it contributes -- and in some very little to none. As I stated above, you can't discuss the Mideast without it. However, I am struggling to think of anywhere else where it is so important.

Regards,
Feltan

[tkobo]

From what i can see Darfur is mostly about religion.

The government is Islamic, the Janjaweed is Islamic, and many of the rebels are still Christian and Animist.Just like in the first and second sudanese civil wars.
The current manifestation is really the third such civil war, with the only real difference being that now there is a more measurable Arab Islamic rebel faction in the mix also.Important to note, that the versions of Islam are different(between the rebels and the government), and hence they are fighting over them.

It can be realistically said, that the war is simply in its third stage of the 1955 civil war.
The three main stages being circa 1955- circa 1973/ circa 1983 to circa 2005/ circa 2001 to now.With of course fighting still going on inbetween each stage, but on a smaller scale.

AND all sides want more political power to run the country(or their part of it) based on their religious beliefs.
The current war itself dates back to before 2001,despite how the media trys to make it seem more recent.The Janjaweed can be traced back to before 2001 also,all the way back to at least 1996 as far as the government using the Janjaweed to attack its enemies goes.

Only circa 65% of the country is Islamic, which doesnt sit well with the Tajamu al Arabi.Which brings the other very powerful reason for the war, RACE, into clear view.

Politics and political power are the goal, but the deciding factors in the sides of the war (who fights who), are mostly religion and race.

I think adding religion to the game would make it far more realistic and interesting, BUT,im not sure i want the game that realistic especially when i envision the "war" such a feature would bring to the games development and forums.

[Lightbringer]

With all due respect to our European friends, you are missing the point about Religion. Religion IS politics, and a very cut throat, stab your mother in the back, brand of politics it is. Whether it is a Government, or a Religious creed, any time you have a small group of people who exert some form of control upon a greater mass of people, that small group is going to make efforts to both increase it's control on those it already has, and dominate any rivals it perceives. This is the same reason that Socialism has been doing it's level best to stomp Religion in Europe into the mud for over a hundred years. Leaders may not truly believe that they are serving God by starting some "Holy War", but the masses need some reason to charge a machine gun nest, or strap explosives onto their bodies and smile when they flip the trigger.

People in general, the average population, would probably just live their lives in peace. The leaders of any region that want to increase their power need a way to get their people fired up enough to do their bidding. Religion is perfect for this. It is emotional. It is very easy to point at some different creed or sect and say, "Those people eat Pork!! Those people serve the Devil!! They do this Wrong!! They do that Wrong!! and they say that YOU are Evil!!", and since the leaders of that different creed or sect are saying much the same thing about group A, the leaders even have Proof. Viola'.... instant anger and hatred. Then the leaders of both regions can take their pissed off followers and point them at each other like a loaded gun.

Yes wars are fought with political goals in mind. Religion is the ammunition used to actually fight them in very many regions around the world. If you don't believe that Religion is strong enough to cause people to fight, I suggest you do a news search on the words Europe, and Muslim. If you would say they are angry because of economic hardships, then why aren't poor Christians bombing trains and rioting? I am not saying anything against Islam in general, but too many young Muslims are being loaded into the gun of hatred for everyone to ignore. The Mullahs that are doing this want what? Political power. So you are right...just don't tell the hordes of people who believe they are fighting because God wants them to.

What i'm saying is that today religion have no more the power it had, both one people and states, that it had in middle ages.

Exactly. I just finished a 1,200 page college text on European history starting at the end of the dark ages. At least 500 pages were spent discussing the various wars fought between Catholic countries and Protestant ones. No, they were not exactly trying to exterminate each other, they were trying to gain political control so that they could dictate which Religion would be dominant in different countries and therefore dictate who would be an ally in the next round of wars. Yes Catholics fought Catholics...and Protestants fought Protestants, but most often the sides lined up along Religious creed.

I'm not saying Religion should be the focal point of 2020. But if you ignore it's importance in the political arena, you will be ignoring a top five motivating factor in conflicts around the world.

[Legend]

Religion is a part of SR2020. All the regions have a "general" percentage breakdown between major world religions.

Religion will not be a focal point in SR2020 but will, as mentioned, create some effects that were not present in SR2010. In 2010, when you attack someone for the most part everyone would get more belli towards you. Perhaps this will not be the case when you attack in 2020.

To put it in simple terms, even when you do dumb things sometimes your friends support you. What I envision the effects to be are something as follows:
You have a country (A) and declare war on another country (B). Countries (C & D) have identical relations to your country such as civilian relationships, diplomatic standings etc. The effect of religion will then cause one region to see your actions slightly differently than the other region, with the help of religion. A like religious populous to yours may support you, and one that is opposed may not like your actions. The effect may be minor but enough that you will start to see differing actions by these countries in the future.

On a side note... Lightbringer's comment - Religion IS politics - has me thinking. Several weeks ago I started to think about something... The Environmentalism "movement". In many ways it is rooted in politics and mirrors the term "religion" when looked at from a distance. Statements such as, "you aren't recycling?" sound much like, "you aren't going to church this Sunday?" The control I see exerted by some people to "join a religion" is seen in people around me to join their "environmental causes". I have many other examples but I'll continue. Environmentalism is greatly being used as a political tool and many political parties include it in their agendas. I'm sure it is even used as a cause for action towards other people in other countries. A common theme is how countries rate with others in how they handle their natural resources and the misuse can be seen as a dividing line between people in different cities, provinces/states and countries. To me the Environment seems like it's the new religion and the new politic. But that's just my point of view.

[Feltan]

Legend,

Just try to discuss global warming with someone who is an ardent believer that mankind is the sole cause of it. There won't be a discussion. There will be a one sided diatribe that would make fanatical religious missionaries look like inept salesmen.

Regards,
Feltan

[tkobo]

^ Hhahahhahahah, so true.

[Balthagor]

In my mind your comment fits right into Legend's thoughts; same as you get fanatical religious believers you get fanatical preachers at both ends of the environment spectrum. Don't forget that you'll find equally as many diatribes at the other end of people who insist that mankind has nothing at all to do with the radical changes in climate. I see Feltan that you're listed as from "Midwest US", seen any interesting weather patterns lately?

[BigStone]

The fact that Environmentalism is discussed in a religion topic makes you wonder ...