Blog - Don’t talk about religion or politics…

Talk about on-going development of Supreme Ruler 2020 here. What would you like to see in updates or in a future Supreme Ruler title?

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red
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#16 Post by red » May 28 2007

Hmm... want to expand religion to "ideologies" and give each region a few? ;) Put you back quite a while, I guess... But some nations are most influenced by a religion, some by consumerism, etc. Now that would go a long way towards making regions really unique.

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#17 Post by Jan » May 28 2007

Lightbringer wrote:(...) I suggest you do a news search on the words Europe, and Muslim. If you would say they are angry because of economic hardships, then why aren't poor Christians bombing trains and rioting? I am not saying anything against Islam in general, but too many young Muslims are being loaded into the gun of hatred for everyone to ignore. (...)
you should really do teh research for yourself "Lightbringer", you'll discover that about 20% of the population is muslim in western europe and that poorness doesn't make a difference between religion.

i may not understing what you are saying correctly (i hope it) but aren't you saying that islam is generating rioters and such people ready to sacrify their live if "mullah" ask them? :lol:

by the way, i don't want to make the forum becoming a verbal battlefield so i won't continue further, it won't generate anything usefull for the game.

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tkobo
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#18 Post by tkobo » May 28 2007

Isnt it ?
Havnt the leaders of Christianity and most other religions done the same at some point in their religions "evolution"

This isnt a "slam" on any religion,its just the simple fact that people who want power often use others to achieve it , and religion is one of the prime tools in they employ to do so.For some of those,its even the driving reason they seek power.

Same way that race is far to often used .

Heck even "sports" are now manufacturers of negative behavior.And to many of those people behaving that way, the "sport" in question is equal to their religion.

I wouldnt be suprised if someday spain(or some other region) declared war due to a lost soccer match :P

As for the game , it will be interesting to see how they attempt to deal with so complicated an issue.
I wonder if the simplest route isnt the best way to go in the game.IE where like religions stick together on the world stage kind of thing.
This post approved by Tkobo:Official Rabble Rouser of the United Yahoos
Chuckle TM

Jan
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#19 Post by Jan » May 28 2007

don't take any offence but you seems to generalize far too much, there are extremists that are claiming themselves from a given religion.

The easy way is to make the amalgam and conclude that the whole religion is a nest of extremist. It's very disrespective toward the big majority of believer from that religion who are everything but extremist.

Then what? all Irish units will have a bonus in demolition of upgrades because their where all certainly in IRA when they were young? :roll:

I can't believe that there are still people that are still have such concept from another age in their mind.

I really hope that religion won't have a such phantasmagoric role in SR2020 and i'm waiting for more precision from the devs.

cheers,

Jan

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#20 Post by Lightbringer » May 29 2007

I certainly didn't mean any disrespect to peaceful practitioners of the Islamic faith. I merely used the example of extremists acting to effect political solutions, using Religion as a motivating factor for their followers.

I'll speak more generically. Just because God himself does not appear on Earth and strike down people with lightening bolts, or carve commands to attack in stone, does not mean that Religion does not play a major part in the affairs of men. Just because the Pope might order all Catholics to destroy all Hindus and the Pope is a man, not God, does not mean the war would be any less driven by Religion. I am not indicting Religion. I am not saying God wants wars. I am saying that Religion can be, and is, used to motivate people to fight wars for their leaders, whether those leaders have purely political motivations themselves or not. The Crusades were Political wars that used Religion to motivate the faithful to fight. The European colonization of the Americas was a Political and Financial "war". Much of the motivation for the average man was to spread Christianity to the heathens, because the Spanish leaders portrayed it that way to them. The Germans and Russians didn't do their damnedest to wipe out their Jewish populations because they didn't like people worshiping on Saturday. They had political motivations, they used the Religious differences as a tool to focus their people on the "enemy" instead of on deeper problems within those countries.

Personally, I don't much care what level Religion plays in this game. Just don't try to convince me that it does not play a major role in world Politics.
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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#21 Post by Feltan » May 29 2007

I guess I'm lucky I'm not a developer on this game, because I would have a blast with this topic. Of course I'd probably offend just about everyone. :-)

Hey! How about some modern day Jannisaries!

I think when you combine what the Goats have told us about a revamped diplomatic model with a flavor of religion, you are talking about the basis for a really really great game. Just the options for scenario development are mind boggling!

Regards,
Feltan
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#22 Post by Balthagor » May 29 2007

I've only read bits and pieces of the latest posts, but I'm reminded why we try and avoid religion being too big an issue in the game. It's just all around messy ;)
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#23 Post by Legend » May 29 2007

If I might shed some light on the idea of the use of religion in the game... here is an analogy.

We could have said, "we are modeling colour" - for americans... it's "color". lol.

We have red, blue, orange, green, yellow, purple...and a few more. These are favorite colours that people have.

So, the country of Japan could have the breakdown as follows
14% of people prefer the colour - purple
79% prefer green
7% prefer yellow

Now compare that to other regions and you have countries that have things in common.

If Japan attacks a country that doesn't like green at all... then other green liking countries may support Japan's actions just a bit more than they would have before taking colour into consideration.

It's a way to determine some common ground between countries. We are not making any distinctions between the different colours... and we certainly aren't saying that people who like the colour blue are more prone to do certain things.

Instead of using colour, we could use religion. We can look up these values and see a correlation to the real world. Again we are not making any statements about one religion versus another... but we have noticed that countries with similar viewpoints and preferences tend to stick together a bit more.

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#24 Post by Lightbringer » May 29 2007

Oh... by the way, I agree completely that Enviromental Extremism used to exert control over populations is a religion. While I admit that Mankind's contributions to climate change are a possible factor, the science supporting these nutjobs is heavily flawed and skewed. Especially for such demanding vehemence that all people submit to their "consensus".
Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you're being had. "Let's be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. "Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus.
- Michael Crichton on dangers of 'consensus science' in a 2003 speech

Anyway, I say give the Eco-***** the color Puce'. :P
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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#25 Post by Jan » May 29 2007

thanks for theses precisions Chris and Legend, considred as "affiinities" between peoples, religious beliefs can be interisting.

cheers,

Jan


PS:
Lightbringer wrote:(...)The Germans and Russians didn't do their damnedest to wipe out their Jewish populations because they didn't like people worshiping on Saturday. They had political motivations, they used the Religious differences as a tool to focus their people on the "enemy" instead of on deeper problems within those countries.
(...)
the leaders that promotted the eradication of jewish people had a serious mental problem, they where convinced that they had to do it to cure their countries from that "cancer". Thoses who used used that for politics were their subordinate and they all used "racial" reasons, it was not religious at all, their hate was toward jewish people, not only Judaism belivers. Along that they also persecuted tzigans and people with a physical or mental handicap.

(...)Just don't try to convince me that it does not play a major role in world Politics.
in my humble opinion, not anymore today, since more or less the industrial revolution, wars are more a continuation of Realpolitik with another means.

By the way, i can live with the idea that you are not thinking exactly like me, so i'm not "trying to convince you" (i've nothing to sell you ;) ), i'm only explaining you my point of view and it's enriching to read your.

cheers,

Jan

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#26 Post by red » May 29 2007

Legend wrote:It's a way to determine some common ground between countries.

Instead of using colour, we could use religion. We can look up these values and see a correlation to the real world.
Do you have any opinion adding more colors such as European, Asian, Arab, Latin, etc., or capitalist/socialist economies, familial/anonymous societies, openness/closedness of society, and so on...?

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#27 Post by Lightbringer » May 31 2007

Jan wrote:By the way, i can live with the idea that you are not thinking exactly like me, so i'm not "trying to convince you" (i've nothing to sell you ), i'm only explaining you my point of view and it's enriching to read your.
Agreed Jan. I took debate all though High School, so I sometimes come across as hard headed in discussions like this. I do appreciate other people's points of view. If we all agreed on everything...we'd commit suicide from boredom in short order. :P
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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#28 Post by Legend » Jun 27 2007

red - at this point we don't see that being added. We already have the following:

civilian relations
diplomatic relations
causus belli
and now to a small degree we are introducing religion that may influence the above factors.

I've tossed around the idea of proximity as well - mainly you may not be as "justified" to attack someone if you don't live in the area.

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#29 Post by madjack » Jun 27 2007

Sorry my last post was misplaced..
I believe the ministers should play the highest role in religious affairs. And also a social spending to religion, even to different ones would be suitable like favoring dominant or minor one. Suitable religious diplomatic actions would be necessary. Authoritian governments have to be able to suppress religion. There should be something like a religious education tick box in the education panel, for example.
Of course, those would be micromanagement for players, and ministers could solve that. But I'm not sure if the devs would want to go into that much depth of detail..

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