Seriously Flawed AI...or GREAT multiplayer?
Moderators: Balthagor, Legend, Moderators
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- Sergeant
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Seriously Flawed AI...or GREAT multiplayer?
Having played this sim/game for about 50hrs, and having just learned (finally), that the AI will never improve its infrastructure, and having seen how the AI avoids -AT ALL COST- the capture of anything REMOTELY resembling something that might actually HELP them, or be of ANY value what-so-ever, and after watching thousands of troops being sent into the middle of the #@$%# desert to sit and rot..I have concluded that this game is probably better suited to a couple of 12 year olds trading punches, and should DROP the single player deception all together.
The AI is nothing more then an obstacle (a very small one at that). Designed to run around in circles until you our your partners sweep them out of the way.
This is unfortunate in the extreme, as I IMHO, the amount of logic involved to bring the AI up to a livable level could probably be found in most 5th grade class rooms.
Planes being sent on bombing runs...ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE GLOBE????
3 Billion troops sent to the middle of nowhere, while skirting past the enemy's capital (OR ANY ENEMY CITY), to get there.
Pathing that forces depleted units through enemy territory to get resupplied.
7 Million troops stationed at cities - 3 days journey from any enemy forces or target for that matter.
Countries declaring war on me,...because I'm too NICE?????
The list goes on and on and it only gets worse.
Has anybody that developed this game...ACTUALLY PLAYED IT???"?
Believe it or not;
I posted this here in the hopes that some developer with a tiny piece of pride in their work left, might actually be prodded to spend the extra 15mins on coding, and add some common sense into this game.
I'll give you a hand...
If the value of hex A is < 0 IGNORE, If all hexes values are < 0 switch to "take territory" mode...Else path to ANY hex where value is GREATER THAN 0.
If Fuel supply is 50 miles and hex destination is 3200000000000909 MILES, Switch target, change attacking unit to one that is equal, or wait until destination hex is CLOSER!
One more...
If Supply to Destination hex is NON-EXISTENT, and destination hex is UNABLE to be supplied...DON'T GO TO DESTINATION HEX!!!
(Better yet...DON'T PUT HEXES on a map that cannot be supplied, and with an AI that is unable to build the supply)
*this of course assumes that this is a "Single player" game AT ANY LEVEL!
The AI is nothing more then an obstacle (a very small one at that). Designed to run around in circles until you our your partners sweep them out of the way.
This is unfortunate in the extreme, as I IMHO, the amount of logic involved to bring the AI up to a livable level could probably be found in most 5th grade class rooms.
Planes being sent on bombing runs...ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE GLOBE????
3 Billion troops sent to the middle of nowhere, while skirting past the enemy's capital (OR ANY ENEMY CITY), to get there.
Pathing that forces depleted units through enemy territory to get resupplied.
7 Million troops stationed at cities - 3 days journey from any enemy forces or target for that matter.
Countries declaring war on me,...because I'm too NICE?????
The list goes on and on and it only gets worse.
Has anybody that developed this game...ACTUALLY PLAYED IT???"?
Believe it or not;
I posted this here in the hopes that some developer with a tiny piece of pride in their work left, might actually be prodded to spend the extra 15mins on coding, and add some common sense into this game.
I'll give you a hand...
If the value of hex A is < 0 IGNORE, If all hexes values are < 0 switch to "take territory" mode...Else path to ANY hex where value is GREATER THAN 0.
If Fuel supply is 50 miles and hex destination is 3200000000000909 MILES, Switch target, change attacking unit to one that is equal, or wait until destination hex is CLOSER!
One more...
If Supply to Destination hex is NON-EXISTENT, and destination hex is UNABLE to be supplied...DON'T GO TO DESTINATION HEX!!!
(Better yet...DON'T PUT HEXES on a map that cannot be supplied, and with an AI that is unable to build the supply)
*this of course assumes that this is a "Single player" game AT ANY LEVEL!
- Balthagor
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Re: Seriously Flawed AI...or GREAT multiplayer?
This is your one and only warning that being rude will not be tolerated. Even towards the staff.
If you'd care to use the search function at the top right of the page, there are plenty of threads discussing the AI already. And yes, we the developers are highly involved on these forums. I'll hold our AI up against the average game out there and feel no shame what so ever. With the resources available to us we have done a solid piece of work.
If you'd care to use the search function at the top right of the page, there are plenty of threads discussing the AI already. And yes, we the developers are highly involved on these forums. I'll hold our AI up against the average game out there and feel no shame what so ever. With the resources available to us we have done a solid piece of work.
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Re: Seriously Flawed AI...or GREAT multiplayer?
Thats trueBalthagor wrote: With the resources available to us we have done a solid piece of work.
NO MORE NOISY FISH [unless they are green & furiously]
I HAVE STILL A FISH IN MY EAR
I HAVE STILL A FISH IN MY EAR
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- Colonel
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Re: Seriously Flawed AI...or GREAT multiplayer?
Ok i agree that the AI is flawed and not perfect but what game is perfect. Now there is alot more to do in this game than just wars (which i am not even going to go into, try searching around the forums) and if you start as a small nation it is a challenge, even more so if you set yourself some personal goals/rules to follow. Also i really think that you should have checked around the forums before you attack the Dev's because if you had you would see that they are very involved in this game and they are very helpful and will answer any questions that you might have. You should also try to be polite.
- Ruges
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Re: Seriously Flawed AI...or GREAT multiplayer?
What version of the game are you playing? The most recent patches have cleaned up some of the AI's units running out of supply issues. And I have been working mod that changes the way the AI uses units and put in some supply stuff so it can help a bit in those out in the middle of nowhere places.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6s5jZuViKE
I am still working on this mod thow. But you can see from the video that the AI can infact be intelligent, Granted on equal terms they cannot defeat or defend from a player who is using super stacks (a full stack of either infantry or tanks depending on terrian, followed by a stack of supply units followed by a stack full of morter untis, followed by a stack full of arty all suported by air units). And evenualy I would love to teach the AI how todo stuff like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6s5jZuViKE
I am still working on this mod thow. But you can see from the video that the AI can infact be intelligent, Granted on equal terms they cannot defeat or defend from a player who is using super stacks (a full stack of either infantry or tanks depending on terrian, followed by a stack of supply units followed by a stack full of morter untis, followed by a stack full of arty all suported by air units). And evenualy I would love to teach the AI how todo stuff like this.
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Re: Seriously Flawed AI...or GREAT multiplayer?
Ruges wrote:What version of the game are you playing? The most recent patches have cleaned up some of the AI's units running out of supply issues. And I have been working mod that changes the way the AI uses units and put in some supply stuff so it can help a bit in those out in the middle of nowhere places.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6s5jZuViKE
I am still working on this mod thow. But you can see from the video that the AI can infact be intelligent, Granted on equal terms they cannot defeat or defend from a player who is using super stacks (a full stack of either infantry or tanks depending on terrian, followed by a stack of supply units followed by a stack full of morter untis, followed by a stack full of arty all suported by air units). And evenualy I would love to teach the AI how todo stuff like this.
It actually moves? It does things? Conquers? I shall make it my prime task to obtain and field test this mod that is, by the looks of it, made of awesome and win. Just wanted to say that.
Say, I just had an awesome idea. Could you make it that one country has your AI in it and the rest don't and observe how it does compared to when it's all normal, playing as the Seychelles?
Sounds improbable at best, but one has to try.
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- Sergeant
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Re: Seriously Flawed AI...or GREAT multiplayer?
I apologize, Honestly.
It is the great quality of work that has been done on most of the game that lead to my frustration.
The game has many great qualities that really amazed me. Those who play it know what they are. Honestly to many to list.
It is exactly that fact that had me pulling my hair out. Because I was waiting for the AI to be as quick for my opponents and especially my allies.
I was doing all I could do to help my allies to fend off enemies, only to discover that I was wasting all my resources.
If I'm allowed to be totally honest...its like playing chess against myself. Sure it will be somewhat fun and I may even learn a thing or two. But, its still a bit lacking in the challenge dept.
Overall the games economic, social, and research dept's are very well balanced and fair.
The military strategy dept could use some shoring up.
I wanted to add these comments earlier, but it was very late and I was a bit tired.
If I thought this game was total garbage or that the developers were not very good at what they do, I wouldn't have bothered to write.
I do think that the game has tremendous potential, which is why I was a bit frustrated.
If we can look past my hot-headedness and look honestly at the problems mentioned...I think they can be addressed in a relatively short amount of time.
I certainly didn't think the game was going to be perfect...and to be honest I was very surprised with the balance and detail level.
However, that being said, I'm forced as the player, to act in ways contrary to common sense in order to play.
For instance:
1)To keep my neighbors content...I have to build up my military and wave it in their face. Something that runs counter to real life. (We don't send tank battalions to the Canadian border on a daily basis to keep them from attacking us...or any other nation...OK, maybe the Soviets and Chinese.)
2)Most countries that see another nation doing well, usually want to befriend that nation...not declare war on them.
3)If my country has an ally on the other side of the globe, and they become engaged in a military battle. Most countries will do what the can to resolve the situation without being dragged into the conflict themselves. However, in this game, sending all the assistance in the world, to a country that will not put it to the proper use (IE: NOT attack the enemy), is futile and a waste of time. Again, contrary to reality. (OK, close, we do have a problem with Mexico )
I have read quite a bit of the forums, not just this one, and from what I can tell; I have to either HACK the game to get it to cooperate on some level, or wait till its fixed.
Again, I believe this game is a great start for what could set the "BAR" for future "world conflict/economic" sims.
I still believe that the items mentioned in the first post need addressing in order to make this sim more then a game of "Kick-the-can" only really slowed down.
I have seen a myriad of work-arounds for these problems posted in the forums.
I just wanted to add my voice because after I paid for this game, I didn't see a lot of people mentioning these problems...and didn't get the impression that any serious work was being done to alleviate them.
I am very encouraged by the response (and the spanking ). This is actually a good sign that somebody cares and is willing to listen and deal with my hot head.
Again let me apologize for "blowing my top". and offer all the encouragement I can, to the developers who have done such a great job up to this point.
Game version 6.6.2 Gold. (it was gold out of the box).
Ruges,
I had watched your video prior to my rant.
To be fair, my game is very similar to that now...its just that the units don't act remotely like you would hope.
Fighting only brakes out if two units accidentally bump into each other and then they fight until they reach their loss break points and leave.
but I digress, Apparently, the developers know (or do now ) where things are lacking and I'm hopeful that they are working on it and not leaving it to hackers and modders to finish.
It is the great quality of work that has been done on most of the game that lead to my frustration.
The game has many great qualities that really amazed me. Those who play it know what they are. Honestly to many to list.
It is exactly that fact that had me pulling my hair out. Because I was waiting for the AI to be as quick for my opponents and especially my allies.
I was doing all I could do to help my allies to fend off enemies, only to discover that I was wasting all my resources.
If I'm allowed to be totally honest...its like playing chess against myself. Sure it will be somewhat fun and I may even learn a thing or two. But, its still a bit lacking in the challenge dept.
Overall the games economic, social, and research dept's are very well balanced and fair.
The military strategy dept could use some shoring up.
I wanted to add these comments earlier, but it was very late and I was a bit tired.
If I thought this game was total garbage or that the developers were not very good at what they do, I wouldn't have bothered to write.
I do think that the game has tremendous potential, which is why I was a bit frustrated.
If we can look past my hot-headedness and look honestly at the problems mentioned...I think they can be addressed in a relatively short amount of time.
I certainly didn't think the game was going to be perfect...and to be honest I was very surprised with the balance and detail level.
However, that being said, I'm forced as the player, to act in ways contrary to common sense in order to play.
For instance:
1)To keep my neighbors content...I have to build up my military and wave it in their face. Something that runs counter to real life. (We don't send tank battalions to the Canadian border on a daily basis to keep them from attacking us...or any other nation...OK, maybe the Soviets and Chinese.)
2)Most countries that see another nation doing well, usually want to befriend that nation...not declare war on them.
3)If my country has an ally on the other side of the globe, and they become engaged in a military battle. Most countries will do what the can to resolve the situation without being dragged into the conflict themselves. However, in this game, sending all the assistance in the world, to a country that will not put it to the proper use (IE: NOT attack the enemy), is futile and a waste of time. Again, contrary to reality. (OK, close, we do have a problem with Mexico )
I have read quite a bit of the forums, not just this one, and from what I can tell; I have to either HACK the game to get it to cooperate on some level, or wait till its fixed.
Again, I believe this game is a great start for what could set the "BAR" for future "world conflict/economic" sims.
I still believe that the items mentioned in the first post need addressing in order to make this sim more then a game of "Kick-the-can" only really slowed down.
I have seen a myriad of work-arounds for these problems posted in the forums.
I just wanted to add my voice because after I paid for this game, I didn't see a lot of people mentioning these problems...and didn't get the impression that any serious work was being done to alleviate them.
I am very encouraged by the response (and the spanking ). This is actually a good sign that somebody cares and is willing to listen and deal with my hot head.
Again let me apologize for "blowing my top". and offer all the encouragement I can, to the developers who have done such a great job up to this point.
Game version 6.6.2 Gold. (it was gold out of the box).
Ruges,
I had watched your video prior to my rant.
To be fair, my game is very similar to that now...its just that the units don't act remotely like you would hope.
Fighting only brakes out if two units accidentally bump into each other and then they fight until they reach their loss break points and leave.
but I digress, Apparently, the developers know (or do now ) where things are lacking and I'm hopeful that they are working on it and not leaving it to hackers and modders to finish.
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Re: Seriously Flawed AI...or GREAT multiplayer?
I think that the AI is fine, it should learn a buch about building new complexes logically on itself and not beeing afraid of building the the towns. The way ai uses it's units is in need of upgrading, what would you do if someone send a few air squadrons into your air space? would you only send inteseptors? if so, the what if you don't have inteseptors or any air craft for that matter, maybe you could send in a AA unit to scare them of etc... Really puching trough the desert can bee seen as mad or genius. If you can use supply helios and supply trucks correctly a puch trough the desert might be a smart flanking move that in some cases could prove vital. Though the AI can't use theese methods correctly, some can be fixed by simple mods and some you just have to live with until the devs do something.
also, fixing the AI unit "spam" build could prove to improve the AI itself, if the AI dosen't have that many units then they will send less units to the desert.
For mods, se my signature.
also, fixing the AI unit "spam" build could prove to improve the AI itself, if the AI dosen't have that many units then they will send less units to the desert.
For mods, se my signature.
Last edited by Hullu Hevonen on Apr 06 2010, edited 1 time in total.
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- Balthagor
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Re: Seriously Flawed AI...or GREAT multiplayer?
A much more constructive post, thank you. I will respond later, just woke up.
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Re: Seriously Flawed AI...or GREAT multiplayer?
Deja vu.!!
I felt exactly like the original poster did when I first got the game. Doubly so after the sequel. Then after reading/responding/ (hopefully contributing) for over a few years I have come to respect the game with its flaws.
One thing I have learned about games in general is that the more detailed/complicated the game the more difficult it is to program a good AI.
I will say this, nothing out there compares to this game, and once played with a good group of people in multiplayer, it is hard to go back to single player
I felt exactly like the original poster did when I first got the game. Doubly so after the sequel. Then after reading/responding/ (hopefully contributing) for over a few years I have come to respect the game with its flaws.
One thing I have learned about games in general is that the more detailed/complicated the game the more difficult it is to program a good AI.
I will say this, nothing out there compares to this game, and once played with a good group of people in multiplayer, it is hard to go back to single player
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Re: Seriously Flawed AI...or GREAT multiplayer?
I agree, but my friends instead aren't really friends of theese kinds of games and openly express how crappy theese games are though they have never played theese games... I repeatedly try to convince them that they should openmindetly try a game before judging.rhjyyz wrote:Deja vu.!!
I felt exactly like the original poster did when I first got the game. Doubly so after the sequel. Then after reading/responding/ (hopefully contributing) for over a few years I have come to respect the game with its flaws.
One thing I have learned about games in general is that the more detailed/complicated the game the more difficult it is to program a good AI.
I will say this, nothing out there compares to this game, and once played with a good group of people in multiplayer, it is hard to go back to single player
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- Balthagor
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Re: Seriously Flawed AI...or GREAT multiplayer?
So I've reread the post (ignoring the ranting ) and am not really sure what to suggest other than looking up some of the existing threads on the AI. For some of your examples I'm unclear on how the situation occurred such as "countries declare war for being too nice". You'd almost need to break each of these into its own thread to discuss AI reactions to each of those cases. I will warn you that many of these problems are not as black and white as you may think. As an example, your comments on the general AI pathing;
The point is simply that AI programming is a complicated affair.
How are you calculating value of a hex? Strategically? Economically? Politically? Look in game and find 884,144. By most formulas this would have a value of zero. But it is an open hex next to open hexes backed by a river. For a tank in this area facing infantry it's the safest place to be. Alternately, 961,107 is an empty hex, but a bottleneck thus strategically important.Otterbear wrote:If the value of hex A is < 0 IGNORE, If all hexes values are < 0 switch to "take territory" mode...Else path to ANY hex where value is GREATER THAN 0.
The point is simply that AI programming is a complicated affair.
- George Geczy
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Re: Seriously Flawed AI...or GREAT multiplayer?
While examples of 'stupid units' can be found, most AI regions use most of their units in reasonably logical manners, especially with the latest update and playing at the high military difficulty levels.
Remembering that the AI in SR2020 doesn't cheat (something not true of most strategy games), and that it does not use pre-determined expectations of the world (ie the game is moddable etc), and of course the fact that thousands of units must operate independently in real-time, there are limitations. However it also has to be remembered that the majority of players find the tactical AI extremely difficult when they first start playing, sometimes overwhelmingly so (search the forums here for the first-time experience of many players). Obviously players that are more experienced develop 'tricks' (super stacks, engineer rushes, etc) to gain a tactical advantage, and for most of those tricks the AI dos not have a direct (read 'equally tricky') response, but this is an issue against experienced players, and in some cases the solution may be to try to prevent certain tricks in the first place (ie, not every unit in an army can be an engineer or elite, etc).
Even as an experienced player I can often find myself in very difficult battles with the AI if I'm playing normal speed and haven't created super-stack or overwhelming-force types of configurations.
-- George.
Remembering that the AI in SR2020 doesn't cheat (something not true of most strategy games), and that it does not use pre-determined expectations of the world (ie the game is moddable etc), and of course the fact that thousands of units must operate independently in real-time, there are limitations. However it also has to be remembered that the majority of players find the tactical AI extremely difficult when they first start playing, sometimes overwhelmingly so (search the forums here for the first-time experience of many players). Obviously players that are more experienced develop 'tricks' (super stacks, engineer rushes, etc) to gain a tactical advantage, and for most of those tricks the AI dos not have a direct (read 'equally tricky') response, but this is an issue against experienced players, and in some cases the solution may be to try to prevent certain tricks in the first place (ie, not every unit in an army can be an engineer or elite, etc).
Even as an experienced player I can often find myself in very difficult battles with the AI if I'm playing normal speed and haven't created super-stack or overwhelming-force types of configurations.
-- George.
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Re: Seriously Flawed AI...or GREAT multiplayer?
This thread is the first time I am seeing the term "super-stack". Why is it being used now and has it been coined to imply players that use a stack of units, for example;
2 tanks
1 AT
4 inf
Are cheating because the AI is cannot do this? I am perplexed.
2 tanks
1 AT
4 inf
Are cheating because the AI is cannot do this? I am perplexed.
https://www.youtube.com/user/GIJoe597
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Re: Seriously Flawed AI...or GREAT multiplayer?
I was under the impression that a super stack is what you get when you use the entrench order to create, well, a super stack with over 7 units in it and use the entrench order to get to places.GIJoe597 wrote:This thread is the first time I am seeing the term "super-stack". Why is it being used now and has it been coined to imply players that use a stack of units, for example;
2 tanks
1 AT
4 inf
Are cheating because the AI is cannot do this? I am perplexed.