Discussion of the Garrison System

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Ufllee
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Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

Post by Ufllee »

So considering the 2010 history I was not aware of Garrisons are a step in the right direction. But how about the second point? Forcing the AI to raise his DEFCON level to create garrisons would be a benefit, no? I was thinking it might help telegraph its intentions, force it to depend on "regular" units first (prioritizing them downwards in other words), and replicate the additional "costs" to the economy and society of maintaining huge armies of reservists...

any thoughts on that point? is it even feasible from a game mechanics standpoint?
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Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

Post by Balthagor »

that has a lot of indirect implications, I have no comment on it myself.
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Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

Post by catatonic »

Ufllee wrote:So considering the 2010 history I was not aware of Garrisons are a step in the right direction. But how about the second point? Forcing the AI to raise his DEFCON level to create garrisons would be a benefit, no? I was thinking it might help telegraph its intentions, force it to depend on "regular" units first (prioritizing them downwards in other words), and replicate the additional "costs" to the economy and society of maintaining huge armies of reservists...

any thoughts on that point? is it even feasible from a game mechanics standpoint?
I think that as it is now that the AI increases its level of garrisons as its DEFCON increases.
"War is merely the continuation of politics [diplomacy] by other means"
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"Defense: De ting dat keeps de cows off de road."
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Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

Post by catatonic »

I wanted to inform the general audience about some of the implication of actual game play with weak garrisons.

In my current modded game I have weakened the garrisons to the point of turning them into "squeeky toys":

a) They have weak ground offence and defense.
b) They have no close-combat attack.
c) They have no movement.
d) They have no close-air attack,

They make great, satifying explosions when they die.

Initially I reduced their batallion size to just 74, but then I realized what a manpower drain they were on the enemy, so I restored them to the full 740-man unit.

But despite their weakened condition, ST garrisons still act as "speed-bumps". It takes 12 hours for a Marine unit to wipe out seven ST garrisons and much longer if there is no arial supply source. So the point is that you still cannot just blow though a town full of ST garrisons. And if there is armor in the town you must first expend supplies dealing with that and then face the garrisons.

Notice that in my example I use just one attacking unit. This is one profound effect of ST garrisons - your own units can be streched a lot further. I just finished taking over Russia via Siberia and my modus operendi was to air-drop Airborn and Marines onto remote towns and oil/gas fields. One unit for garrisoned towns and two if there was an armored unit as well.

Despite the fact that they technically have no movement, the game does occasionally force them out of their town/hex. All this really does is makes them even easier to kill.

Another advantage is that you can by-pass a garrisoned town without getting hurt. Previously it was damned hard to pass through a hex adjacent to a garrisoned town. And they are always blocking the road.

Over-all the game is much more fun - like taking off tight shoes that have hurt for a long time. How can it be any fun to have to dig out and kill thousands of deadly garrisons is the course of a game?

P.S. China has about 400 garrisoned cities and now that I have taken China I have to manually de-garrison it. That is no fun either.
"War is merely the continuation of politics [diplomacy] by other means"
General Carl von Clausewitz - 1832

"Defense: De ting dat keeps de cows off de road."
Catatonic - 2012
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Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

Post by tkobo »

I was remembering a bug last night,about how if the population got too high in a city,the "need" for a unit stationed there would overwhelm the player settings and order units to said city.

Im wondering if there is a system in place to decide wether or not a city needs a garrison at all.I know youve said your going to go at this from the angle of player settings for garrisons,but im wondering if youd get a better result by putting in place (or tweaking if ones there) a system that defines,decides, and places garrisons in a more "need" oriented scheme.
This post approved by Tkobo:Official Rabble Rouser of the United Yahoos
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Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

Post by catatonic »

tkobo wrote:...places garrisons in a more "need" oriented scheme.
BG - Unless you are Lishtenstein, Rhode Island or Luxembourg your region's borders need protection, not your interior. The larger the region the more this becomes apparent. If you could have the AI treat its borders like one big hotspot then this would solve a lot of problems, including that of excessive garrisons.

Currently when at war or massive military buildup, the AI "garrisons" everything larger than a village with many Garrison units and at least one "guardian" - one or two armored units or an engineer. This often forms the bulk of a region's armed forces. Guardians are called off as needed in times of dire national emergency. This is OK, except that you don't need guardians or garrisions in the region's interior.

The other problem is the hording of units around major cities, fabs and super-bases. This may be what Tkobo was referring to when he mentioned a bug. Of course a region should heavily garrison its Capital - a super-defensive-hotspot. But when a region is attacked these super-formations of units that are not near the battle-front often just sit there. Often the AI could kick the tar out of an aggressor if it would only mobilize these huge gobs of remote units in a timely fashion.

The battle-front hotspot itself is of course a part of the "border" and it may move back and forth.

If the AI was more border-intensive with its "garrisoning" then there would be more non-Garrison units at the attack site to begin with. And Units from all over the region, including these remote super-bases would respond to the attack, leaving an adequate number border guards behind.

Currently remote units trickle into a combat zone, usually at a glacial rate that assures that they will be killed once they reach the action. And if the action dies down, then no one moves. This would not happen if a hotspot was automatically placed at an enemy's Capital.

Another way to control garrisons is for a region to lower its DEFCON once a peace treaty is negociated. Currently a region does not do this and continues on a massive military build-up without end.

Another thing that would help would be if the AI was capable of reducing its garrisons after a peace treaty. Again an AI is incapable of doing this.
"War is merely the continuation of politics [diplomacy] by other means"
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"Defense: De ting dat keeps de cows off de road."
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Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

Post by Balthagor »

catatonic wrote:
tkobo wrote:...places garrisons in a more "need" oriented scheme.
BG - Unless you are Lishtenstein, Rhode Island or Luxembourg your region's borders need protection, not your interior. The larger the region the more this becomes apparent...
Isn't that why the French built the Maginot line?

in MP games Garrisons have saved me from being overrun. even in SP game at times I've been caught by naval invasions where I had no forces nearby.
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Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

Post by catatonic »

Balthagor wrote:
catatonic wrote:
tkobo wrote:...places garrisons in a more "need" oriented scheme.
BG - Unless you are Lishtenstein, Rhode Island or Luxembourg your region's borders need protection, not your interior. The larger the region the more this becomes apparent...
Isn't that why the French built the Maginot line?

in MP games Garrisons have saved me from being overrun. even in SP game at times I've been caught by naval invasions where I had no forces nearby.
The game already provides a "Maginot line" of Garrisons in all towns, including the borders. My proposal was to fortify these borders with mobile units that would otherwise be loitering in the region's interior. These units would move with the action, so your example is flawed.

Sea frontiers are border regions too. With my proposal, there would be no holes for naval invasions to attack.
"War is merely the continuation of politics [diplomacy] by other means"
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"Defense: De ting dat keeps de cows off de road."
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Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

Post by Balthagor »

I disagree, I was not discussion the issue of idle mobile units, you stated a rearguard was useless I stated it was not.

There will always be situations where there are holes.
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Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

Post by Hundane »

in MP games Garrisons have saved me from being overrun. even in SP game at times I've been caught by naval invasions where I had no forces nearby.
This is kinda what I dont like about the ease of use of garrisons. If no garrisons were not an option in game, Players and the AI would need to produce another form defense to protect thier borders.

IMO, the interior regions also need to be defended , if the AI ever learned how to paradrop units like a Player could, then just protecting the borders would make it easier to paradrop further inland.

Some regions really need the garrisons because thats all they have for defense and they have no ability to produce anything else but regions that can build units rely on them just as much which IMO doesnt make alot of sense.
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Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

Post by catatonic »

Balthagor wrote:I disagree, I was not discussion the issue of idle mobile units, you stated a rearguard was useless I stated it was not.

There will always be situations where there are holes.
A read-guard is fairly unless since the AI could easily "grow" new garrisons behind the line of battle (the border) as it moved inward, due to the glacial pace of AI battle.

You are correct that AI amphib invasions tend to target un-defended areas, which is surprising due to the FOW. But whenever I have been attacked from the sea it has been due to my own negligence. I would not expect an AI that was obsessed with guarding borders to make the same mistake - it would automatically "grow" garrisons everywhere along its border, or post guards.

Remember in SR2010 when the AI would send an Engineer to guard each bridge?
"War is merely the continuation of politics [diplomacy] by other means"
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"Defense: De ting dat keeps de cows off de road."
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Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

Post by catatonic »

catatonic wrote: EXCELLENT! If I never see another garrison then I will be a happy player.

I'm surpised that no one has mentioned this yet - make the "Reduce Garrisons" priority for the DM actually work.
I finally figured out the DM "Decrease Garrisons" priority.

In a starting "Global Crisis" campaign the U.S. starts out with 2,294,636 reserves.
With the following settings, by Jan 10th the DM will have created the following numbers of garrisons:

Setting , #of garrisons, % of total force
------------------- ----------------- -------------------
Garrison Lockout , 0, 0
No Priority ,567682, 19
Increase Garrisons ,744534, 25
Decrease Garrisons , 73413, 2.6

As mentioned previously, once the game is in progress and everything is garrisoned, "Increase Garrisons" will indeed increase the number of garrisons past the standard level, however "Decrease Garrsions" will accomplish nothing.

So I strongly recommend that "Increase Garrisons" and "Decrease Garrisons" be renamed "Strongly Garrison" and "Weakly Garrison" respectively.

Furthermore, I would suggest a new third alternative DM priority labeled "Decrease Garrisons" that will actually cause the DM to begin to "de-garrsion" - to remove garrisons from the game, and that "Garrison Weakly" will act in a simular manner.

Test conditons:DEFCON 5, low military initiative, military salaries = 0, military spending - locked, garrison control - locked, DM unit control - locked.
"War is merely the continuation of politics [diplomacy] by other means"
General Carl von Clausewitz - 1832

"Defense: De ting dat keeps de cows off de road."
Catatonic - 2012
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Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

Post by Hundane »

Test conditons:DEFCON 5, low military initiative, military salaries = 0, military spending - locked, garrison control - locked, DM unit control - locked.
Cat , did you lock these before the hexes were garrisoned , or after ?

On day 1 I always lock out the minister from garrison controls and he never builds any. If hes locked out and ordered to decrease garrisons, he cant because he's locked out.
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Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

Post by Ruges »

hes saying he started a new game 4 times in a row. and runing each game until jan 10th to see how the AI orders its garrisons around.
First test was with garrisions locked.
secound was unlocked and nothing else
third was unlocked with the minister priority to decrease garrisons
fourth unlcoked with minister priority to increase garrisons.
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Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

Post by Hundane »

Increase Garrisons ,744534, 25
Decrease Garrisons , 73413, 2.6
If these numbers are correct , then whats the problem ? unless Cat missed a digit or something. Or am I looking at this wrong ?
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