Discussion of the Garrison System

Talk about on-going development of Supreme Ruler 2020 here. What would you like to see in updates or in a future Supreme Ruler title?

Moderators: Legend, Balthagor, Moderators

Message
Author
User avatar
Ruges
General
Posts: 3407
Joined: Aug 22 2008
Location: Nearby, really I'll see you tonight when your sleeping
Contact:

Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

#76 Post by Ruges » Feb 23 2010

the problem is when you think you are ordering your DM to decrease garrisons you exspect him to decrease the amount that is deployed. This is not the case. in most situations he could end up increasing your garrision number. Thats why he sugests it should not be called decrease garrison instead it should be called Medium garrison and heavy garrison.

catatonic
General
Posts: 1113
Joined: Jun 03 2009
Human: Yes

Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

#77 Post by catatonic » Feb 23 2010

Ruges wrote:the problem is when you think you are ordering your DM to decrease garrisons you exspect him to decrease the amount that is deployed. This is not the case. in most situations he could end up increasing your garrision number. Thats why he sugests it should not be called decrease garrison instead it should be called Medium garrison and heavy garrison.
That is correct.

The terms "Decrease Garrisons" and "Increase Garrisons" are poorly worded and misleading. By the way that they actually work they should be labeled "Lightly Deploy Garrisons" and "Heavily Deploy Garrisons". Unlocking the DM and specifying no priority would imply the normal, medium number of garrisons.

There is no way to order the DM to actually "Decrease Garrsions", that is, to decrease the number of garrisons already deployed. The only way that you can accomplish this is to do it manually.
"War is merely the continuation of politics [diplomacy] by other means"
General Carl von Clausewitz - 1832

"Defense: De ting dat keeps de cows off de road."
Catatonic - 2012

User avatar
Ruges
General
Posts: 3407
Joined: Aug 22 2008
Location: Nearby, really I'll see you tonight when your sleeping
Contact:

Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

#78 Post by Ruges » Feb 23 2010

You know this is somthing we can acualy do ourselfs. Its located inthe localtext.csv
Since I already include this file with my mode I went ahead and made the change

Code: Select all

22,Lightly Deploy Garrisons,Slightly increases Garrisons,lightly increases costs and use of reserve personnel,Leaves complexes and cities lightly defended
Attachments
garrisons.jpg
Last edited by Ruges on Feb 24 2010, edited 1 time in total.

catatonic
General
Posts: 1113
Joined: Jun 03 2009
Human: Yes

Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

#79 Post by catatonic » Feb 23 2010

Cool!

Now all we need is that third priority...
"War is merely the continuation of politics [diplomacy] by other means"
General Carl von Clausewitz - 1832

"Defense: De ting dat keeps de cows off de road."
Catatonic - 2012

NephilimNexus
Lieutenant
Posts: 66
Joined: Sep 28 2009
Human: Yes

Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

#80 Post by NephilimNexus » Feb 27 2010

My thoughts on Garrisons, from a pretty smart guy:

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/thoma ... peace.html

Hundane
General
Posts: 1857
Joined: Sep 11 2008

Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

#81 Post by Hundane » Apr 07 2010

But more recently I have another idea: To give Garrison units a zero movement speed. That way, they can't run away any longer, nor can they be 'moved away' by players that want to create a garrison zombie army. This also prevents the "too many garrisons" issue (when Garrisons are moved onto a hex that already has 7, they can't "re-integrate" and so stay as a unit).
I started up a vanilla campaign game recently but I was using Ruges AIparams(?) file.

Saw a few interesting things happen. Garrisons that had retreated from cities were being moved back into the cities (if that city hex is still being battled over) ,in some instances those garrison were being moved towards a battle area even it wasnt a city hex type. Since they move at a slow speed , sometimes the battlefront moves to far away for them to get into the action and this causes some to be stuck in the middle of nowhere at times but if the battle happens to be nearby it looks like they are getting move orders to that area. Those that do make into a city hex are being put back into the box unless its already full. When this happens the garrisons stay deployed but stay in the city hex.

So basically what Im saying is, I hope they dont get a 0 movement speed IF they can be programmed to get back into the fight or be moved back into the cities and it looks likes they can be capable of doing this.

User avatar
Balthagor
Supreme Ruler
Posts: 19952
Joined: Jun 04 2002
Human: Yes
Location: BattleGoat Studios

Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

#82 Post by Balthagor » May 20 2010

So, the Garrison changes...

Like'em? Don't?
Chris Latour
BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com

catatonic
General
Posts: 1113
Joined: Jun 03 2009
Human: Yes

Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

#83 Post by catatonic » May 20 2010

From the General Discussion/Update 7 thread:
catatonic wrote:
George Geczy wrote:- Extra Garrisons on a fully-garrisoned hex are now disbanded
Does this mean that if I move a garrison to a hex that already has 7 garrisons in it then the extra garrison will just go away?

This situation usually happens when garrisons are suppressed and retreat out of their home hex. However, now that you have set their movement rate to 0, this should never happen, should it?

I noticed that when you deactivate bases now the garrisons do not deploy like they used to - good work. This will save a lot of hassle.

Now if only "Decrease Garrisons" would really decrease the garrisons in a captured region...
Balthagor - I never got an answer to my question or an explaination.
But more recently I have another idea: To give Garrison units a zero movement speed. That way, they can't run away any longer, nor can they be 'moved away' by players that want to create a garrison zombie army. This also prevents the "too many garrisons" issue (when Garrisons are moved onto a hex that already has 7, they can't "re-integrate" and so stay as a unit).
This was posted quite a while ago and I neglected to reply that I had already tried modding Garrisons and set their movement speed to zero. It did not work. When surpressed they retreated and left the hex anyway.

I suspect that in Update 7 you must have made code changes so that the Garrisons with a zero movement speed will stay in their hexes.
Hundane wrote:(on April 7th, 2010)
... Garrisons that had retreated from cities were being moved back into the cities...Those that do make it into a city hex are being put back into the box unless its already full.
I thought that this was an Update 7 change but apparently it is not. I have been manually telling them to re-entrench, once I moved them back to their hex.
Hundane wrote:When this happens (over-stacking) the garrisons stay deployed but stay in the city hex.
When I read the "garrison overstacking" item in the list of Update 7 changes, I did not know what that meant. I never had "over-stacked" Garrisons, since if the home hex was already full with seven garrisons I would manually scrap all seven to make room for the "orphaned" ones.
Balthagor wrote:So, the Garrison changes...Like'em? Don't?
So I assume that by "them" you are referring to zero movement, no over-stacking and no Garrison pop-up when deactivating bases. This last feature is un-documented. Are there any others that I don't know about?

I haven't been in combat with Update 7 enough to observe the first two taking place, but anything that saves me having to micro-manage Garrisons, I like a lot.

I am however disappointed that none of the other, stronger anti-Garrison measures were implemented. Certainly if you could set their movement to zero then you could have weakened them or reduced their strength as well. Or did you already?

IMHO, the fact that you still inherit thousands of Garrisons when you capture other Regions is still a big problem. If I want Garrison on my borders, then I will put them there. I certainly don't need them all over my region's interior. And the strength and number of enemy Garrison is way too high. Slogging through thousands of them is no fun - it is just drudgery.
"War is merely the continuation of politics [diplomacy] by other means"
General Carl von Clausewitz - 1832

"Defense: De ting dat keeps de cows off de road."
Catatonic - 2012

Hundane
General
Posts: 1857
Joined: Sep 11 2008

Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

#84 Post by Hundane » May 20 2010

Hundane wrote:
(on April 7th, 2010)
... Garrisons that had retreated from cities were being moved back into the cities...Those that do make it into a city hex are being put back into the box unless its already full.


I thought that this was an Update 7 change but apparently it is not. I have been manually telling them to re-entrench, once I moved them back to their hex.
Thats was something I had observed in a Vanilla game using Ruges AIParams file. It seemed to me that with that file, the garrisons that were being pushed out would recover (if they survived) and be ordered back towards the frontlines, usually the city they came from. It didnt happen all the time, there was still a few that I observed that seemed to get stuck in a isolated areas. It happened alot more in the African regions IIRC.

In U7, Im not sure if they are fighting it out once they get the order to retreat. They cant retreat due to 0 movement and sit idle with a destination order to an adjacent hex.

User avatar
Balthagor
Supreme Ruler
Posts: 19952
Joined: Jun 04 2002
Human: Yes
Location: BattleGoat Studios

Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

#85 Post by Balthagor » May 20 2010

Cat; I'll try and get an answer to that, not entirely sure...
Chris Latour
BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com

catatonic
General
Posts: 1113
Joined: Jun 03 2009
Human: Yes

Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

#86 Post by catatonic » May 20 2010

Hundane wrote:
Hundane wrote:
(on April 7th, 2010)
... Garrisons that had retreated from cities were being moved back into the cities...Those that do make it into a city hex are being put back into the box unless its already full.


I thought that this was an Update 7 change but apparently it is not. I have been manually telling them to re-entrench, once I moved them back to their hex.
Thats was something I had observed in a Vanilla game using Ruges AIParams file. It seemed to me that with that file, the garrisons that were being pushed out would recover (if they survived) and be ordered back towards the frontlines, usually the city they came from. It didnt happen all the time, there was still a few that I observed that seemed to get stuck in a isolated areas. It happened alot more in the African regions IIRC.
For you non-modders, the AIParams file contains the data that instructs the AI which units to build and which units to use to respond to combat "requests" sent to it by the game engine.

I noticed in the vanilla AIParams file that many of the instances that instructed the AI to send Infantry units also allowed it the option of sending foot-units. Therefore I am not surprised that "orphaned" Garrison units could get recruited to answer front-line combat requests. I have never observed it myself, but I do a lot of Garrison micro-management - spending a lot of time putting Garrison-vermin back into their holes.
In U7, I'm not sure if they are fighting it out once they get the order to retreat. They can't retreat due to 0 movement and sit idle with a destination order to an adjacent hex.
This is exactly what I observed when I started to test U7. The AI would give them a "Retreat" order. They did not seem to leave their hexes anymore. But then I started to test using the Ruges mod and the Garrisons started moving again, so I was confused. It turned out the in the Ruges 3.49 mod he had not set the Garrison's movement speed to 0. He corrected this in version 3.52.

But it seems to me that there is a sequence of events: "Highly Surpressed", "Retreat" and then "Move To".
I believe that once "Surpressed", the unit stops fighting.

The Garrisons not poping out when you deactivate their bases is going to be a big help. Previously when I wanted to close unneeded bases in a captured region I would have to make two passes - one to retire all of the Garrisons in the target base. Then I had to wait a day until the Garrisons were gone and then make a second pass to actually close the bases. And if there was a non-entrenched Garrsion on the hex I would have to make three passes - what a pain!
"War is merely the continuation of politics [diplomacy] by other means"
General Carl von Clausewitz - 1832

"Defense: De ting dat keeps de cows off de road."
Catatonic - 2012

Hundane
General
Posts: 1857
Joined: Sep 11 2008

Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

#87 Post by Hundane » May 22 2010

So, the Garrison changes...

Like'em? Don't?
Overall I like the changes.

Ships can pop a city hex w/o getting destroyed or heavily damaged and I think its the same with aircraft but I havent tested either too much. Just going from observations on seeing the AI pop the hexes with ships thats defended with just garrisons.

Havent seen any garrisons being pushed out and just sitting there.

Manpower and thier overall strength used to be issue for me but thier slightly reduced stats and the latest changes on what the AI sends and how much it sends along with the new thing about a hex being surrounded losing supply seems to help the AI vs AI battles, specifically when it came up against stacks of garrisons. It seems to do be doing a whole lot better.

I would still like to see a "no garrisons" option in the lobby though :D

User avatar
tkobo
Supreme Ruler
Posts: 11833
Joined: Jun 04 2002
Location: In a vast zionist plot ...RIGHT BEHIND YOU ! Oh Noes !

Re: Discussion of the Garrison System

#88 Post by tkobo » May 22 2010

Yes, i kinda wish this one
One item on our wishlist is a lobby option to adjust the max # of Garrisons buildable in a hex, from 0 to 7.
had made it in.Or if it did,that i could find it ,becuase ive looked pretty hard... :lol:
This post approved by Tkobo:Official Rabble Rouser of the United Yahoos
Chuckle TM

Locked

Return to “Development - 2020”