Roadways and parking lots for aircraft ?

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » May 31 2007

Currently in sr2010 its VERY easy to remove almost of a regions air power.All you have to do, is remove all of that regions air facilities.

Now i know what im about to ask is kinda left field for the game, but why not let aircraft with no operational facilities land on the roadways,instead of simply running out of fuel and crashing.

This idea might be alot more easy to implement now that multiple facilties
can in effect occupy the same hex.

Though im unsure on if they are seperate buildings on the map in a single hex, or just single buildings (map wise) with multiple functions.

If the latter, single facilties with multiple function, create a new facility thats a smaller version of the airfield and apply it to the roads .

Feltan · Post by **Feltan** » May 31 2007

tkobo,

You want to land several squadrons of B-52's on an interstate highway?

Come on now, that makes the idea of M113's parachuting out of the sky like snow flakes sound reasonable.

Regards,
Feltan

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » May 31 2007

Yea, but it still wouldnt make overly doctrine bound people seem reasonable

By the way the ROCAF practices touch and goes on their highways on a regular basis.Especially the 5 highways designated as emergency landing strips.They do so with fighter sized aircraft of EU and US origin.

Highway Strip 206 9,105 23Â° 59' 59" N 120Â° 30' 38" E
Highway Strip 260 9,184 23Â° 32' 45" N 120Â° 24' 23" E
Highway Strip 296 298 8,638 23Â° 14' 18" N 120Â° 15' 02" E
Highway Strip 331 334 9,186 22Â° 55' 29" N 120Â° 15' 29" E
Highway Strip 58 60 8,000 24Â° 57' 30" N 121Â° 11' 45" E

AND germany does the same, with their circa 30 IATA code designated highway emergency strips .

Canada has a smaller system in which highways are used for emergency landing of commerical aircraft.

Though the U.S actually doing so ,is more urban myth than fact.
The fact is that the U.S. Air Force, which, when the plans for our interstate system were being drawn up in the 1950s,did put in a request: that every 50 miles or so the highways have a straight three-mile stretch oriented in line with prevailing winds.
It ws turned down, but due to doctrine beliefs and questions about military convoys tieing up the roadways far too much for it to be used for aircraft anyway.

In addition during WW2 in the U.S. "flight strips" were built near major roads for emergency use only.They were built large enough to land b-17s and b-24s.

etc...

Dont know if any of the regions are curently doing so(or have plans too) with large bombers,but i wouldnt doubt it.

red · Post by **red** » May 31 2007

So it can be done, but in the end it's only a few airstrips in a few countries and for emergencies, right? I accept that it can be done, but I think it's so uncommon in real life that including it in the game would be unbalanced.

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » May 31 2007

In what way would it cause inbalance ?

red · Post by **red** » May 31 2007

Because it's probably rare and difficult to do in reality, but in the game you probably wouldn't pay that cost, it'd actually be very easy to just land wherever you want.

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » May 31 2007

I disagree with the rare (it only rare because theres no current paramount need) and difficult (cant be too difficult if Taiwan can do it regularly).

But ill move onto another point.
Lets look at the US.Ive read there are over 600 airfields capable of landing military aircraft in the US.How many are shown on the map in the game for the US?
I dont know the number off hand, but id bet the only ones shown are SOME of the known military ONLY air facilties.

Id bet this applies to almost every region map.

And another point, remember all im talking about here is landing the aircraft.
So that they arent lost due to fuel issues.
Im not talking about letting them take off from these positions.

red · Post by **red** » May 31 2007

How about a tech for having aircraft operate from highways, and a one/two/three(?) day upgrade "Motorway Airstrip" that's built on only motorways and functions like a worse version of the Airstrip and with no spotting?

But I don't know if it's really a big issue either way. Who'd use it?

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » May 31 2007

I'd go for that.

The goal im shooting for here is too give the AI a realistic way to not lose all its aircraft in the blink of an eye.

Feltan · Post by **Feltan** » May 31 2007

South Korea also has improvised air strips in some highways.

In that case, and the others cited, they are emergency air strips. You simply could not land an entire squadron on them -- there is no taxi way or apron to move them off the strip once landed.

Most non-reinforced highways couldn't even accomodate a single large aircraft. The pressure would fracture and collapse the concrete which is not designed to withstand that much weight supported by so few tires. Airfields are much, much thicker concrete than roadways.

With regard to airfield capacity that is not represented -- I agree. There are a multitude of airfields not represented that could accomodate all sorts of military aircraft. A major commercial airport could handle hundreds of aircraft without issue. However, that is not how the Goats have modelled airfields.

Regards,
Feltan

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » May 31 2007

In the case of germany and taiwan, there are parking lots at some of these strips for aircraft that have landed.

i read somewhere that the fighters actually cause melt damage to the strips in taiwan over time.

the issu ehere is, that modeling causes an unrealistic effect thats eqaul to a penalty to regions in the game.They have the estimated aircraft, but not the estimated infrastructure to support them.
Which makes an age old strategy of bombing the enemies airfields far too effective.

Jan · Post by **Jan** » May 31 2007

it's also very common in sweden where roads were designed with wartime airstrips in mind. In peacetime, regular airports are used (easier maintenance and safer airsapce management) but ate wartime (and during yearly field training exercice) planes are operating from "dispersed field airstrip" on road. All modern swedish are built to operate from such "facilities".

cheers,

Jan

BigStone · Post by **BigStone** » Jun 01 2007

Wonder how this should be programmed .... one word: helicopters

Jan · Post by **Jan** » Jun 01 2007

Jan wrote:it's also very common in sweden where roads were designed with wartime airstrips in mind. In peacetime, regular airports are used (easier maintenance and safer airsapce management) but ate wartime (and during yearly field training exercice) planes are operating from "dispersed field airstrip" on road. All modern swedish are built to operate from such "facilities".

cheers,

Jan

Source:

The JAS-39 can take off and land in less than 600 metres (2,000 feet), which also allows it to be deployed to a road base. The road base system of the Swedish Air Force ensures that attack aircraft are re-located, within a short time, to remote places, difficult for an enemy to find. Once deployed to such a base, the JAS fighters can be serviced by a ground crew of six, including one highly trained specialist and five non-specialist conscripts. The team can refuel and rearm the fighter in ten minutes.

The contenders: Gripen JAS-39

Swedish defense plans include a concept known as "BAS 90", which envisions dispersal of aircraft in groups of four to six to "road bases" defined around specially reinforced lengths of highway with associated dispersal areas. This scheme dictates the Gripen's short-field capabilities. The Gripen can take off and land in less than 600 meters (2,000 feet).

http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avgrpn.html

Road base on google

there are also such facilities in other countries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_strips_in_Poland

Google Earth Community: Highway Strips

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ai ... orth_Korea

basically any country that can expect aerial attack on it's airfields in wartime have "auxiliaries airfields/highay strips/road bases", it was very common in ww2, a bit less since airforces have modern jets but some planes are planned for that from teh start and it's definitelly an advantage in wartime.

cheers,

Jan

Feltan · Post by **Feltan** » Jun 01 2007

Jan,

It is one thing to land a few aricraft at a remote road strip, and another to operate a squadron of a couple of dozen aircraft -- much less an entire airforce of potentailly hundreds of squadrons.

Everyone has agreed from the get go that this can be done, and some nations have the capability to host some some aircraft at remote location.

However, I still don't think it warrants modelling in SR2020.

Rather, the point tkobo raised about non-representaed airfields is, in my opinion, something that needs consideration. There are hundreds if not thousands of legitimate runways that could host and sustain military aircraft that are not represented. Heck, within a 60 mile radius of where I sit there are probably two major and a dozen or more minor airfields not represented on the map. Concrete is poured and set -- they are there waiting, and aircraft deprived of an "official" SR2010 airfield would certainly be able to land at any one of them without issue.

How can the Goats model that in SR2020? Esentially, no aircraft should crash land due to the absence of an official airfiled in friendly territory -- but what do you do with them when they land at a non-supported and non-represented landing strip?

Regards,
Feltan