The Need for Speed

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Eric Larsen
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The Need for Speed

#1 Post by Eric Larsen » Feb 07 2007

They say that speed kills but in SR2010 slowness kills when it comes to planes and missiles and that overeffective AA. In playing with 4.61 I finally figured out the problem and how to fix it.

I remember being told by BG that the planes and missiles were artificially slowed down for visual presentation purposes. They were slowed down so we could watch them crawl across the screen so agonizingly slow and the only upside is that it makes them easier to micromanage because they are so clueless they need constant supervision.

The problem with this artificial slowdown is that the slow planes and missiles become AA fodder. The problem is that AA and SAM's aren't also slowed down by the same factor for their Air Target Rate of Fire so they get to fire and fire and fire at those slow planes and missiles until they shoot them down or the planes retreat. The other problem is that targets aren't getting hit by missiles when they should. Instead of an hour flight time the stupid slow missiles take like 12 hours which means the target lives that much longer.

The solution is to slow down AA and SAM ROF for air targets, but not for ground targets, by the same factor that planes and missiles are slowed down. Personally I could care less about watching my missiles fly, I would rather not see them fly so I see the desired target getting attacked sooner. But that presents a problem in having unequal air target movement rates and the need to then differentiate between missiles and planes for air target ROF speed.

Another problem I saw was plane altitude. My mid-altitude planes take off and fly at low altitude where they are shot at by ground units with only low air target capability. Then they pop up to mid altitude, but by then they've lost planes unneccesarily because the planes flying at low altitude are too stupid to pop up before they fly over the ground units that are already visible. I even turn off the plane's ROE target selection for ground units to ensure they don't horse around attacking ground units unless I actually want them to.

Mid altitude or High altitude planes ought to just fly at their respective altitudes regardless of real life tactics of flying low to avoid radar detection. Real life pilots are smart enough to not fly low over known enemy units with low air target capability while SR2010 planes aren't. Since movement pathing is rather simplistic and seems to drag air units over enemy units without a care it would be best to dumb down the altitude changing silliness in SR2010 so that air units just fly at their normal air target altitudes. If planes are attacking ground units, like A-10's that use guns, then they should be flying at low altitude when attacking but pop back up to mid air when flying or loitering. Planes that use supply to attack (supply usage rather than actual free fall bombs or missiles) should be releasing from mid air or even high air in the case of B-52's. That way we won't lose B-52's when they overfly units with low air target capability only.

I never liked the artificial slowdown of planes and missiles and now that I see that AA and SAM's air target ROF haven't been slowed accordingly I like this slowdown even less. In trying to emulate real life with altitude changes the air units are getting shot up because the program is incapable of knowing when to pop them up to a higher altitude as would be the case in real life. Better to dumb it down so air planes fly at the correct altitude all the time unless they need to drop down when attacking.
Eric Larsen

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tkobo
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Re: The Need for Speed

#2 Post by tkobo » Feb 07 2007

Eric Larsen wrote:
The solution is to slow down AA and SAM ROF for air targets, but not for ground targets, by the same factor that planes and missiles are slowed down.
That seems like a very reasonable game mechanic tweak, that if it can be done, would go a long way in solving the issue.

And although im sure someone will notice the slow fire rate and complain, the reasoning for the change seems more than solid enough to provide a good answer for them on "why".
This post approved by Tkobo:Official Rabble Rouser of the United Yahoos
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Eric Larsen
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Re: The Need for Speed

#3 Post by Eric Larsen » Feb 07 2007

tkobo wrote:That seems like a very reasonable game mechanic tweak, that if it can be done, would go a long way in solving the issue.

And although im sure someone will notice the slow fire rate and complain, the reasoning for the change seems more than solid enough to provide a good answer for them on "why".
tkobo,
Yep I think finally I figured out the problem and a reasonable programming solution. If BG could slow down the planes in an equation then they could slow down the AA ROF against air targets in it's equation. Just a pity that I or anyone else didn't figure this out long ago in time for a fix to get into SR2010. However this solution should be timely enough to get incorporated into SR2020.
Eric Larsen

Pandora's Last Ray
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#4 Post by Pandora's Last Ray » Feb 07 2007

It would help on the graphics side if the developers could have someone add a contrail effect to the missiles/planes, to make them easier to track. That would help ppl also against becoming confused.

Player: What hit my carrier?

(after several replays, slowed down)

A cruise missile? I hardly saw it flying on the screen!

Of course, something similar could be done for ground travel/attack as well; temporary tracks indicating activity/use, shell-tracers, etc. With options to turn these graphics on or off, of course.
“The government must now dissolve the people and elect a new one.”

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Eric Larsen
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Level of Interest

#5 Post by Eric Larsen » Feb 16 2007

If we're supposed to be Supreme Rulers then why should we care about minor details like what hit my carrier? We should be concerned with grand strategy not low level tactics.
Eric Larsen

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bergsjaeger
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#6 Post by bergsjaeger » Mar 09 2007

:lol: Well if a missile sunk one of my carriers, I be asking what did because carriers are one of my prize arsenals. They're good to hold heilos loaded with SF's and such. Makes invasions easier, or to at least annoy the AI with frog hopping from town and city to the next with the helios. Course, there's the option of pestering the AI with F/B's. Just a thought.
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konan
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#7 Post by konan » Mar 13 2007

Well people on this aspect i modded units file (CSV) to answer my personal request on the game that is:

-only Anti Air units can deal with Air Treath, missile included, giving ground units only a Anti air resistance.....when a bomb or a missile mistake the target!

it has been a BIG work but now i see the power of an AIR CAMPAIGN on the enemy! followed by land invasion 8) .

i must say that this doesn't turn the game in a silly way but it improves a lot gameplay.

i added a great number of bombs and specific anti-strucuture bombs (all on real data) so now i bomb enemy power plants and factory instaed to use planes within my borders.


Not real? nato bombing of serbia? gulf War 1 +2 +3? to go in the past WW2 allied bombing of german war industry? .... i dont remember in any of this case that tanks battalion or artillety battalion shot down any plane, but i remember the reverse!!


I can only suggest to BG to give to units their specific role:

AA only anti-air
AT strong anti-tank
and so on and not give to unit a generic whole competence, i'm still courios to see someone to hit from a tank turret with an MG an incoming Paveway Bomb!!!

Pls your impressions are wellcome as always.
konan

Jan
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#8 Post by Jan » May 27 2007

konan wrote:Well people on this aspect i modded units file (CSV) to answer my personal request on the game that is:
(...)
it sounds very attracting, i would very like to see what you have done, could you share the files?
i must say that this doesn't turn the game in a silly way but it improves a lot gameplay.

i added a great number of bombs and specific anti-strucuture bombs (all on real data) so now i bomb enemy power plants and factory instaed to use planes within my borders.
(...)
how is performing the AI now?

I can only suggest to BG to give to units their specific role:

AA only anti-air
AT strong anti-tank
and so on and not give to unit a generic whole competence, i'm still courios to see someone to hit from a tank turret with an MG an incoming Paveway Bomb!!!

(...)
IF teh AI can handle the principle of force combination, it could be great. The "stone-paper-scissor" principle may be a bit simplistic but at least it let all elements to work together.

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