Intelligence/Covert Ops?

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Empier4552
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Intelligence/Covert Ops?

Post by Empier4552 »

So i remember everyone wet their pants over sabotage and spying and the like so...how is the covert ops planned for 2020? can we take down power at bases maybe? Spread germ warfare? sprout guerrilla units in enemy territory maybe? Help cause discontent? SO forth so forth

Also i felt in SR2010 the 'stealth' or specops units werent really..stealth.

I mean lets face it in real life a navy seal time has a high probability of sneaking ont a base and nuking or damaging things. In SR2010 the minute they came near aircarft rained death down upon them if there was a single ground unit
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Balthagor
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Post by Balthagor »

Intel and Covert ops will get more discussion later, but for the stealth issue you should read the blog "as far as the eye can see". It has some info relevent to this.
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Feltan
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Re: Intelligence/Covert Ops?

Post by Feltan »

Empier4552 wrote: ...I mean lets face it in real life a navy seal time has a high probability of sneaking ont a base and nuking or damaging things. In SR2010 the minute they came near aircarft rained death down upon them if there was a single ground unit
In real life, things aren't so smooth. Remember the "covert op" to rescue the embassy hostages in Iran in 1979? Not so covert, not so successful.

Also, a SEAL team has about a dozen folks while the units in SR are battalion sized. You simply don't slip a battalion into a country without the expectation of being detected at some point.

I rather think the game scale doesn't support intel/covert ops. It would be better if it was a diplomatic option and addressed in a notional manner.

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Feltan
moondrift
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Post by moondrift »

Maybe the covert ops could be an option like in certain other games, you fund the covert ops and then you have a certain number of options, sabotage a unit, disrupt supplies, redirect units sabotage a facility etc.
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George Geczy
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Post by George Geczy »

I would tend to agree that covert ops should generally be "high level" decisions, done done as a unit action. As mentioned, a Battalion of 300 special forces soldiers can start to get a bit tough to hide.

David has been working on Intel/Ops ideas, though the key will be to see how those ideas can fit in with gameplay and the rest of the game.

-- George.
powercell
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Post by powercell »

When I think of Spec/Covert Ops in SR2010, I tend to think of the WWII - Raid at Cabanatuan by the 6th Ranger Battalion. Get in undetect. Surprise the enemy and do as much damage as I can. Fight my way out or more like hold the area until friendly force arrive. Certainly can not take out an outpost, but can be done against enemy industrial comflex in order to weaken their ability to support the war. However, due to the difficulty of sending stealth unit into enemy territory in SR2010, I tend to use tomahawk in stead (a lot faster too).
Il Duce
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Post by Il Duce »

When I think of covert ops I tend to think about the diplomatic maneuvering that facilitates them, and the policy vacuum absorbs their intel yield. Such as?

...something less than a transit treaty - that is, something that signifies that complicity and support of a facilitating ally [e.g. Pakistan when US was invading Afghanistan, or Turkey when the US flew U2 flights over Russia]. More of a limited joint ops agreement.

...something that demonstrates that there there really is an iron fist in the velvet glove that offers a diplomatic proposal (and I do NOT mean the Bay of Pigs invasion).

...something that exploits and develops intelligence about the internal weaknesses of the party against whom the action is taken (like the support gotten from the French underground in preparation for D-Day).

The yield or desired results of covert actions probably needs to be defined before this discussion can result in something meaningful. In simpler terms, Yes, it would be nice if 'stealthy' units could operate with more stealth and effect, but... Thinking about what little I know of covert units and operations, there's a few things that they do that are not really well represented in 2010's engine -

--- supporting and training indigenous resistance groups, to develop insurgency forces that make diplomatic offers much more compelling. This type of action could even include disaffecting or disabling local leadership [provincial governors, warlords, garrisons, industrial infrastructure...] in advance of an attack.

--- developing intelligence that supports targeting and logistics planning.

--- the classic fifth column sleeping tiger operation, where, surprise, a coup de grace force comes sweeping out of hiding to attack the flanks of an over-confident defending force.

You could probably set up the third kind of operation in 2010 today [although it would take a lot of patience and time]. The first of these is out of scope in 2010, and I rather suspect that it won't appear in 2020 either. The second item is relatively easily accomplished in 2010 today through hi-air recon flight, to the extent that targeting is possible [see artillery discussions developing elsewhere] or that fine-tuned logistics plays a significant role in 2010 today. It is rare to see an AI region actually put any recon into the air [and believe me, I've given away enough air assets for them to do so].

Typically 'covert ops' are run by intelligence branches - planners and policy advisors, not battlefield operators. And until the AI can be given a good digestive system for intel, it seems that this would give human players a significant advantage. Am I implying that the AI is kinda lacking in the 'I' department? Actually, I think covert ops falls more into the category of artifice.

...as far as maximizing your use of the spec/ops class of units available in 2010 - I do the kinds of operations powercell mentions on a routine basis. Much of the success depends on pure mechanics of setting unit options - see http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7294 especially the last paras of my last post there for assault helo ROE options. SpecFrcs in helos can easily take airstrips and bases -and keep them - if you plan it right. I wish the AI's would pull some of these kinds of stunts on me.
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powercell
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Post by powercell »

Il Duce wrote:...see http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7294 especially the last paras of my last post there for assault helo ROE options. SpecFrcs in helos can easily take airstrips and bases -and keep them - if you plan it right. I wish the AI's would pull some of these kinds of stunts on me.
Nice tactics. I was using pure leg infantry without FARPs. So, my SpecOps lack the speed element to make effective maneuver.
Il Duce
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Post by Il Duce »

As we have seen in the real world, Helos and other transports are essential to spec ops. Try to imagine SEALs without Zodiacs and submarines. In 2010 I have tried to emphasize asymmetrical and small-force doctrines wherever possible, as it seems to be the way the world is going. [Matter of fact, about a year back there was a brief discussion about adding Zodiacs as a a specific unit.]

I think there is a little voice in strategic planners' ears that suggests that small forces mean a lower perception of escalation and a way of avoiding nuclear conclusions. They also keep the casualty count down. It also lets leaders suggest to their poplulations that a given military action is limited in scope and scale [whether it is or is not], and of course it keeps military budgets low - at least on paper.

SR2010, and presumably 2020 as it will apparently derive largely from 2010, presents a challenge to players to be very creative in combining and deploying forces. Sometimes the solution to a tactical problem is not immediately obvious, but so far I have found some 'unusual' ways to get a desired result - although many of the postings on the forum that identify shortcomings in the way a given unit type may be used ring a sympathetic note with me. I just try to work around them. I think I spent the first six months of having this game just experimenting with unit options [right after playing around with diplo and trade] before I ever got really deep into a protracted campaign. I think of this as the second tier of the learning curve. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have it any other way - there's a rich complexity there just waiting to be explored. It just isn't a game that you can take lightly.
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BigStone
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Post by BigStone »

I think the easiest thing the Goats can start with is to blanken
the AI regions maps except the cities.
Now you get all the information (industry,bases etc) for free
I would like to see you have to put some efforts to gain this information
NO MORE NOISY FISH [unless they are green & furiously]
I HAVE STILL A FISH IN MY EAR
Il Duce
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Post by Il Duce »

...Blanking the map.

I tend to agree with that concept.
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Fantnet
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Intelligence

Post by Fantnet »

I wonder how intelligence may work? Will it be of the Shadow President Variety, a game that is similar in some ways as Supreme Ruler 2020.

In Shadow president you have get daily intelligence reports from a "intelligence director" which gives on regional or specific nations. The director informs you on y

Pending convert actions (entire world)
Ambition levels of the selected country. This can be calus belli, which could give you some indication of the nation plans to attack, etc

Antexity Levels (Concerns) about Military, Economics, Poltics, Social, Nuclear issues for a region or nation. This could help with the political aspect of the game because you could address issues diplomatically in the game.

One thing I would note if you have a intelligence briefing on a nation like iran, and of the calus belli level is high or ambition level your intelligence report would read that "Irans ambition level is agressive and hunger for leadership and greater power base, because of this high level, they may support terriorist attacks, build nuclear weapons programs, increase military spending and building tp prepare for attack"

I think this would work wihin a geo-political simulation. As for gathering intelligence this could be done within a nations intelligence agency and military unit like special forces can be deployed tatically to gather information as well as convert ops.


You think you can take this under consideration? I do have the Shadow President game available if you want to see aspects of the Geo-Political simulation. It is freeware.
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