Base/Build Management

[Il Duce]

I'd like to take a moment to repeat a request I made some time ago, while it might have a chance to be incorporated into 2020.

At present, bases represent both a build capacity and a supply presence. Their supply presence has a strong relationship to the location and productivity of facilities. Builds also consume a lot of resources and all of this building is usually the chief cause of inflation.

My original request was for some means to limit the number of build slots available on a base - in the simplest case, for the provision of a dummy units [no-cost/no-resource/infinite build time] that could be queued to lock up one or more slots. It would be a lot nicer to just have a checkbox by each slot to enable/disable it. The intent was to be able to load a queue and not have to check and release constantly on a game-day-basis, in order to control build demand on resources.

Why would you want to do this?

1. I do not want to micromanage the release of units for builld individually.

2. I do not want to build each unit of a logical formation at separate locations and then micromanage collecting them at a given location. [when you play Russia, you are dealing with thousands of miles and a lot of separation - and then there's the question of them being routed right through a contested hex because there's a rouad there...].

3. I just want to enqueue an entire formation and have it built at a controlled rate for future delivery.

4. I very much want to bump up my base size - for the previously mentioned supply source reasons - assume I don't care about buildcap for a moment - but I do not necessarily want to incur the expense or resource drain of building at full capacity at these enlarged bases. After all, I can disable every other facility on the map in a granular fashion.

5. Ideally, if buildcap will still play the kind of role it plays in sr2010, my buildcap should be decremented for each slot that I disable using such a checkbox mechanism. Any other discussion of buildcap and its effect on diplo should be taken up in another thread -not here please.

6. Let's just say for a moment that I might even want to use autobuild, but I do not want to give a 6-slot base over to my ops minister. The ideal solution would be a three way selection for each slot - off-on-auto.

At the very least, disabling slots on a granular basis should really not be that difficult to implement, either in the code or in the gui.

[Feltan]

5. Ideally, if buildcap will still play the kind of role it plays in sr2010, my buildcap should be decremented for each slot that I disable using such a checkbox mechanism. Any other discussion of buildcap and its effect on diplo should be taken up in another thread -not here please.

Well your whole suggestion is pinned on the fact that the buildcap will still play the same in 2020. All I can say is that I hope not -- hence, much of the reason for your suggestion would not be present. The buildcap-diplomatic linkage is, in my opinion, a highly artificial construct. It would be best to scap it entirely -- and if so, you would not need to decrement your build cap to avoid the penalties of having too much build capacity.

Regards,
Feltan

[tkobo]

Im actually in favor of the build cap system. I think it just needs to go further.
It should be more than the blanket effect it is now.

A prime example of where it falls down currently would be something like this:

Region A is at war with region B
Region C is allied with region A
Region C is using its masive build cap to produce and than give units to region A.

Yet region A will still react to the massive build cap of region c badly, just like region B (or any other region in the scenario)

This is an extreme example,but it clearly shows that the system needs more rules in how its effects are determined.

[BigStone]

1. I do not want to micromanage the release of units for builld individually.

2. I do not want to build each unit of a logical formation at separate locations and then micromanage collecting them at a given location. [when you play Russia, you are dealing with thousands of miles and a lot of separation - and then there's the question of them being routed right through a contested hex because there's a rouad there...].

3. I just want to enqueue an entire formation and have it built at a controlled rate for future delivery.

Yep.. very much agreement here....

Any other discussion of buildcap and its effect on diplo should be taken up in another thread -not here please.

I'm afraid you'd have to start a new topic about that Il Duce...

[Il Duce]

yep - like I said - this is a thread about QUEUE CONTROL in bases, not buildcap.

[red]

I hope to never see build capacity again. It's one step above Command & Conquer. Click click click, a thousand pilots accomplish a training program seen in few countries around the world to fly a thousand aircraft producable by only a few companies in the world at a rate of perhaps dozens a year from military goods shipped world-wide overnight. It's a totally inadequate representation the issues faced by governments in building their military and the actual process and results of it has very little relation to what is at all possible in reality. Then the diplomatic consequences: build capacity is the measurement of the military power of a region and so a region which has the greatest military power is that which should first be attacked by our suicidal AI! Not a winning plan. SR2020 really needs something more complete here.

[Il Duce]

Yes, but this thread is about managing the build process in bases by controlling queues. You all know how to start a new topic. Just click the 'New Topic' button three times and repeat, "there's no place like New Topic."'

[red]

Managing the build process, eh? Why didn't you say so... I mean, I agree with your wishlist, especially having the AI understand scheduling and automatic fulfillment of formations, but I'm totally at a loss as to how any but the on/off/auto could be tacked onto the existing system.

[Legend]

Here are some thoughts... trying to keep up with the current thread.

what about "auto-build" per base as it is... but with a quantity selector?

so you are saying, "Cabinet Minister, i give you permission to auto build at base X at 50% capacity/your choice". if you have 6 slots, you could set it to autobuild 3 slots.

As for formation - perhaps you could queue up units to be built and assign what is in the queue to a group. Then as they complete they are already grouped and just left waiting for the last units. They could stay in reserve as a default rule.

Additionally we could allow you to transfer queues (saved selections) to other bases. I think Civ IV does this.

as for building a 6 unit group in a 3 slot base... would you want the first 3 units to sit in reserve? If you could pre group units, you could set 3/6 at one base and the other 3/6 in another close base...

Am I on target with some of the ideas you are presenting?

BTW these are only ideas - and not what will actually make it in the game... it must pass final decision with the team and especially the leader designer.

[Il Duce]

Take me literally - at the most fundamental level I simply want to be able to disable some number of build slots, regardless of the number of items on the queue. As mentioned, I want to do this to limit build cost and resource consumption, specifically where I need to have a larger base than I can actually afford to operate. I need this larger base for two reasons - 1) I want its supply effects in its vicinity, and 2) I have the time and money to expand the base now but neither the need nor resources to operate it at full capacity. Since base size affects so many other things (supply and buildcap, as well as potential drain on cash and resources) it only seems fair to offer inidividual queue control. The worst case now is that I have to check each base almost daily to determine if I want to release another item off of the queue. [In reality, it is not unusual for me to let an outpost sit quietly in the background wth its single build slot and prepare huge formations for use two or three years out. specifically to avoid this management of build slots - but this involves its own micromanagement and logistics issues']

As far as autobuild goes, what you said would be fine - I don't use autobuild ever. I build very specific complex unit formations that autobuild would never understand and couldn't generate [like brigrades that depend on the existence of units that haven't been researched to completion, or divsions that will be used in topology that I don't have to fight in at the moment].

Don't make it more complex than it is, and don't confuse this with unit hierarchy or formations in any formal sense that the game would be aware of. Let's just say that I queue up very specific mixes of units which I logically consider to be a formation structure. This has nothing to do with it. I just want to be able to turn slots on and off to throttle demand. If Buildcap is to be a feature of 2020, then I would also like disabling a slot to be reflected as a reduction in buildcap.

[Legend]

If we allow you to disable a build slot and then turn it on when you want it, this is still an element of your build capacity. You have the capacity to build but you are just deciding not to. Currently build cap is seen as an indicator or threat... so how would your threat be less if you can just throttle up your production when you need it. You know that we look at build cap, but we could look at collective base size.

Do I understand that you want to queue up 6 units at a 6 slot base but turn off some slots and still have all 6 units build at a slower rate?

We do have some tentative plans to adjust the functions of bases but if you have the capacity, you have the capacity.

Perhaps we could allow a new feature to downgrade a base - turning a base from a large base to a medium base.

Any thoughts?

[Il Duce]

quoting:
"Do I understand that you want to queue up 6 units at a 6 slot base but turn off some slots and still have all 6 units build at a slower rate?"

Precisely - or maybe I even want to queue up twenty or thirty - which is typical for me. Effect of this on buildcap is secondary. As I said, I just don't want to manage manually releasing paused items from the queue, and I don't really want to build at full cap (to control demand and its effects on inflation) - but I do want the supply effect of the larger base.

I would note that at present the defense minister does exactly the same thing with missiles - rarely building at full missile slot capacity - and the depth of slot use in missile builds generally corresponds to the military maint budget. What I do not want is for the minister to pick and choose from my queue. Build in the sequence I load, and at the utilization that I choose. I have also noticed that in 2010 when there is a full queue that exceeds the active slot capacity, there is about a 20% chance that items will not build in linear order. iI am not convinced that this picking really reflects the optimum use of slot times to maximize throughput - but who's counting?

As far as buildcap goes, in a post long ago I suggested that build utilization [not potential] should be the metric. I still carry this opinion around with me. This isn't that hard to measure - just count the units periodically and [with a little history] calculate the usage trend. Or accumulate a count of completed units on a periodic basis. But that's not what this thread is about.