2010's biggest single issue was AI

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » Oct 04 2006

Now i dont expect to get an AI that can beat a good player on a regular basis.

That said.

I REALLY want the next AI to be at least competitive.

SOOOOOOO - how about a Dev post that points out what changes are goign to be made to the AI,what abilities are goign to be added, and basically in what ways the AI will be made to be more of a threat.

Put what you've got out there, so the players can examine and rip it to shreds ,in order to make it less flawed.

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » Oct 04 2006

Umm, this was meant to be in the 2020 forum.

As the suggestion about the AI post was meant directly for 2020.

Post by **Balthagor** » Oct 04 2006

(moved)

May still be a little early for AI implementation discussions, but I have PAGES of notes from David, Dax and myself to add to everything George has been putting together so our feature point of "Next Geneartion AI" will not be a minor comment...

Samuel the Great · Post by **Samuel the Great** » Oct 05 2006

Yep, improved AI would really really rock. Two issues that irked me in particular:

1.) AI couldn't conduct amphibious operations. Made playing some nations a cake-walk, since you had all the time in the world to prepare for your own amphibious invasion.

2.) AI reaction to territorial incursion. While this is probably easier said than done, it'd be nice to have an AI that could assess an incoming invasion force and launch the best counter-attack it can muster, instead of the piece-meal "throw a few units at an invading force" thing it does now in SR2010. While the piece-meal thing always runs a risk of getting a unit or two past your force to hamper your supplies, it doesn't actually pose a military threat.

Post by **George Geczy** » Oct 06 2006

Pretty soon I'm sure we'll be talking a lot about AI. As mentioned, we ourselves have made lots of notes, both from prior forum discussions and internal work. There are also some 'philosphical' issues to be addressed as to how the AI should think/work/etc.

Though one of the first things that need to be considered is the difference in what people expect from the AI as a new user and as an 'expert' user.

Though the AI is clearly not a heads-up challenge to expert players, there are dozens of posts on this forum of people who just started playing and found the military AI either challenging or very difficult. There have even been a couple of posts from people that found it so hard as to discourage them from playing the game. This is clearly something that needs to be avoided, and I don't think that simply using the 'difficulty level' setting is enough.

I would even note that the first time dev team members played 'Paris Attacks' and 'German Advance' missions we did poorly and/or lost.

As I say, we'll have lots of opportunity to discuss AI in the coming months, and in fact we plan to use the forum as a bit of a 'sounding board' to see if certain AI strategies and tactics make good gameplay sense or not.

-- George.

Rogs · Post by **Rogs** » Oct 06 2006

i agree about the AIs inability to conduct amphib invasions, i haven't seen one littoral op by the AI which is a bit disappointing. mind you it took years for the paradox team to come up with an AI that could do that in HOI, and even now the HOI:DD amphib AI is fairly un-dynamic

one plea for 2020, can you make all tech lists filtered by tech level so that highest tech is at the top and lowest at the bottom.

Covfam · Post by **Covfam** » Oct 19 2006

one of my biggest wishes for AI would be for it to do amphibious invasions.

i almost never play from the UK/australia/america's because i NEVER have a threat of being truly attacked so i never have to leave ANY troops for defense and can make a purly offensive juggernaught and steamroll my enemy.

and besides amphob assaults alow the computer to Truly make and air drop all those "elite forces,special forces, airborn infantry,rangers" have china suprise japan with a massive airborn invasion every once in a while!

also if possible to upgrade the researching so that the AI doesnt just research military techs but also research civillian upgrades!

one last thing alow in diplomacy the option for you to as a region/country to go to war with another. for example norway gives sweden some techs and units to invade finland.

or alow a limmited "police" action like when germany "helped" spain in its civil war . or when USA "helped" vietnam in its civil war or when china "helped" vietnam in its civil war. to make it a "police" action alow only a set amount of time and set number of units.

or in diplomacy alow you to support one of your allies with other non war options like allowing you to do a naval blockade or for you to transport equipment to you ally for the war effort?

i know these may be asking for too much but hey i might as well ask!

Legend · Post by **Legend** » Oct 19 2006

Great suggestions. We like to hear them so I'm glad you posted them.

Baloogan · Post by **Baloogan** » Oct 19 2006

Could we have options for a "cheating" AI?

Post by **Balthagor** » Oct 19 2006

Cheat in what way? know where you're units are? I'm not sure how it could "cheat" to make it more effective...?

...but I suppose anything is possible as an option. Maybe discuss in a separate thread?

Legend · Post by **Legend** » Oct 20 2006

Sure we can.... we can instantly transport AI units where you don't want them! mwa! hahaaa.

Oh, I'd love to see the look on Baloogan's face when the AI uses this one on him: cheat instantwin

Lightbringer · Post by **Lightbringer** » Oct 20 2006

I think the phenomenon George was reffering to in his post points out a large goal for a competitive AI. I'm not sure what to call it, so Flexibility will have to do. He points out that beginning players, or even experienced players in a new situation, have much more trouble with the AI, while more experienced players complain that they have a walk in the park. This, I believe is directly related to knowing almost exactly what the AI is going to do. A healthy dose of chaos theory and a menu of strategies for the AI to choose from would go (IMHO) a long way towards spicing things up.
Amphib ops would be nice, as well as some more aggressive use of air power. Have their F/Bs attack player units as they start an advance...as opposed to when my/our units reach the airbase gates. Etc. etc. I could probably flesh out some tactics ideas if wanted, but for now my lunchbreak is over...

Mind you, I'm not suggesting the AI regions should suddenly decide to build only supply trucks and have them all attack in suicidal charges at the onset of hostilities...just some variety outside trickle attacks and AA/Arty/Engineer flower stacks. By the way, opening the trickle attack faucets some in update six did help quite a bit, but even though it can get more serious to defend against more charging units...it is still fairly predictible.

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » Oct 20 2006

Its been mentioned before,one way to allow the AI to cheat would be to give it ultra supply.

Make it so the AI units get vastly boosted supply levels.(or inversely greatly lowered suply usage)

This might have a huge effect on the AIs ability to push forward >If you watch a large scale AI push, alot of its units retreat due to low supply.In fact id go as far as to say that more AI units retreat due to supply than due to damage when fighting another AI.

Now im not for the AI cheating, but i see no reason why if you go the various difficulty settings route,why you shouldnt include such a cheat setting.If other people will enjoy it and you can do it, why not.
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As for improving the AIs military perfomance without having to fall back on it cheating, creating a system that allows the AI to advance in FULL STACKS ,and making sure it forms these stacks before it reachs the frontline,would greatly increase the AIs performance.

Lightbringer · Post by **Lightbringer** » Oct 20 2006

I'll second those AI full stack comments Tkobo.

Feltan · Post by **Feltan** » Oct 20 2006

The AI full stack issue is linked to hierarchy -- if the AI units belong to an HQ in some logical fashion, the HQ is the element that the AI could command.

Regards,
Feltan