Anyone else frustrated with this game?

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Verannus
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Anyone else frustrated with this game?

Post by Verannus »

First off, I love this game, mostly because I love it's concept. The ability to war as nations in a complex geopolitical model is fascinating and kinda gets me sexually aroused. The fact that you can play this game completely multi-player makes it an orgy of euphoria. However, this game definitely has it's faults. I am quite positive most of my points have probably been brought up by other members, but my immense frustration with what this game should be has led me to finally post my irritations.

First off, there is definitely something wrong with the game speed. In fact, most of my problem with this game is due to this characteristic. This game is graphically infantile; which is actually a preference with this type of game. The point is, with these weak graphics the game should run as smooth as a delicious lobster bisque, the kind that possesses a delicate creamy flavor that induces the desire to dip perfectly baked bread-sticks drizzled with butter and garlic and all manner of exquisite herbs, into the aromatic dish of perfectly seasoned soup, but its not. It behaves more like a lifeless breaded pastry topped with tablespoons of thick peanut butter that sticks ever so annoyingly to the top of the pallet. (And, yes, I might be 500 pounds. Or 200 lbs if you believe my therapists belief of my "inner self" vs. suppositious self.) :roll:

This type of game needs to be faster; and that includes building time. Facilities should finish in a matter of five minutes versus the hour or two it can take. But I'll even acquiesce to the developers desire for a realistic feel and say ten minutes for facility construction. Gamers, even ones who are captivated by the paradigms of stratagems such as I, want to finish a game like this in a matter of hours, perhaps even ten or so hours of leisurely multi-player would be acceptable. But when it takes MONTHS of playing this game an hour or so a day to complete a single campaign? The question must be asked of whether or not this game was designed to sell? ??? ??? ???

Increasing the building speed of units would dramatically reduce the time to complete a game. The faster one can build an army the faster the world will fall before the German hordes, and at last the Forth Reich could reign supreme across this planet! Yet the problem presents itself for the needless complex unit AI. For this is probably the number one cause for reduced game speeds.

So I ask, why? That's my question, why? So many other real time strategy games offer far more thrilling and realistic military combat without sludging down cpu with a laborious AI! I think this game might only run perfectly on a super computer. I am certainly not a game developer, and have no idea the complexities of these calculative programs, but all other developers seem to handle this fine. GET IT TOGETHER BATTLEGOAT! |O
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Re: Anyone else frustrated with this game?

Post by Eldin »

Is has been stated many times that the game speed is a result of all the calculations the game does. The fact that there are 10's of thousands of units on the map at any all time all calculating spotting, unit pathing etc. really taxes a computer no matter how fast it is. With GC and the latest patch there is a games setting where units are deleted when a nation surrenders, instead of transforming ownership to the conqueror. This can have drastic effects on game speed late in the game.
As for your requests for buildings to be completed faster, I am quite pleased with the way it is now. It forces you to plan in advance and I think that is one of the things that defines a good strategy game.
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Balthagor
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Re: Anyone else frustrated with this game?

Post by Balthagor »

Verannus wrote:...So I ask, why?...
To make a gross oversimplification of your feedback, I'm going to focus on this but provide only a short answer; The game is, to our understanding, balanced in a way that much of our target audience prefers (re: build times/production rates) as reflected by the feedback on the forum. Overall game speed remains a challenge due to (as mentioned) the overhead of the game. Lower graphics don't save us much, the video cards do much of that work these days, not the processor.

We do appreciate the feedback and performance is a high priority with the new development though it's too early to be able to say where it will all be by the end.

If you're looking for more details, just search out the previous responses we've made about "game speed".
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tkobo
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Re: Anyone else frustrated with this game?

Post by tkobo »

The answer to alot of the "whys" is simple, this isnt warcraft/starcraft/clonecraftz.
This post approved by Tkobo:Official Rabble Rouser of the United Yahoos
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Re: Anyone else frustrated with this game?

Post by Fistalis »

Is there another RTS type game that has over 200+ different teams participating on such a large map with tens of thousands of individual units? Last I checked most rts's limit the number of different teams to less than 20 and don't get near even a thousand total units. Most likely to prevent slowdown from AI calculations.. go figure lol.

Point is you really cannot compare other RTSs to this game as its in a league of its own.. unless there is some miracle game i'm unaware of. If so please enlighten me.

On a more helpful note.. you can mod the buildtime/costs of just about everything to make it a quicker moving game.. but it'll probably compound the issue because AI will be able to build units etc faster which will lead to even more AI calculations :D
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Re: Anyone else frustrated with this game?

Post by way2co0l »

I'm still new here and I won't say the game is perfect as there are quite a few issues that hopefully won't follow them into their new game, but for the most part I really love the direction this game takes and have to disagree with the points your bringing up. Yes I admit game speed is important and all the ai scripts and all the units around the world will effect that but I LOVE the depth and I just understand that such depth will come with certain sacrifices to performance. I obviously hope the developers will attempt to find ways to streamline the processes but hopefully they will do so without sacrificing any of the depth they provide.

The problem with so many developers is that they try to appeal to the mainstream gamer too much as they obviously provide the major sales numbers but it leaves those of us that want a deep and engrossing game out to dry. I really love many of the other Paradox titles and have followed them for years simply because they have provided the most immersive experiences you can find in the genre. I've never had any experience with BattleGoat prior to this but I applaud them for attempting such an ambitious project and I believe they did a pretty good job with it, despite it's apparent problems.





In the spirit of providing feedback and suggestions though I will make a few from my limited time playing. I understand that work on 2020 is done and while there may be a new patch it won't be doing much beyond units and small bug fixes but hopefully the feedback will help you to decide what to add in your upcoming games. I'm very excited to see what you do with cold war. :)

Firstly, I want to again repeat that I love depth and immersion, and more then anything else I hope you stay true to that aspect. Obviously everyone's tastes on that subject will differ and your feature to let the AI automate most features is very important. I personally believe that the AI needs to be taught how to do every portion of the game so that the player has the ability to tailer his own gaming experience. I understand that's a complicated task but I feel it pays off both in the circumstance when a player doesn't enjoy taking control in certain areas and forcing them to do them will detract from their experience, but it will also pay off for the player that controls everything himself for the simple reason that the computer AI will be able to make use of everything the player can which will hopefully make the experience more challenging and enjoyable. AI will never be perfect but it's often one of the biggest complaints in every game of scope and I believe focusing on improving the AI will always pay off.

Another big thing for me is massive modability. I'm still new here and haven't checked out what kind of modding options are available but modding is quite simply the most important aspect to any game IMHO, and it goes beyond the obvious. You see, I can't think of a single game in this modern era which didn't ship with problems. Something for the player to complain about. Putting everything possible into text files that any modder can open up and edit the game to their liking ensures that your game can appeal to the largest audience possible. Modders are very creative and will end up releasing numerous alternative versions of the game which in many cases will actually be much better then the base game itself. PI has a lot of experience in this area as they have generally made all of their major strategic releases easily modable.

But a more important point.

"in many cases will actually be much better then the base game itself". This right here. I understand that games like these can be daunting tasks, not only as you try to add the features and campaigns and such but all the fact checking. Making sure unit stats are realistic and deployments make sense ect. That takes a lot of developer man hours and to be perfectly honest, I believe that area's better left to post release and modder work. I would much rather the developers ignore some of the fact checking in the development stage while they focus on the features. Adding as many features that your users will want and doing everything you can to make sure they work properly, while allowing everything to be directly modded. Give the modders the most powerful tools you can and watch them take off running with it. They will fill in realistic OOB's, unit balance, ect which you can then add into the game officially at a later time. My point is simply this, focus on the framework for the game. I don't care if the game ships slightly unrealistic or unbalanced as long as all the tools are available for the modder to fix it. That hopefully means the developer spent more time packing the game with useful features and spent less time fact checking information that can be edited into the game later.

Another thing is in game spreadsheets for just about everything. You guys have a basic list in game which is useful but other paradox titles do it much better. The simple fact is the more comprehensive the lists the better. Allow us to compare national details from a list to save us from clicking each one to check. Provide unit design info on a list to save us from repetitious clicking to check. When all the info is available at a glance just by going to the correct tab list, then it makes these complex games that much more manageable.

Again I haven't been playing too long but I have done a lot of reading on these forums and the ones located on the PI forums and one of the major points I would bring up is the world conquest issue. There was an English AAR that I was looking through where they just systematically steamrolled through Europe and I'm sure that can be fun for some people but I think that's one of the biggest things I dread to experience for myself. I simply can't imagine England so easily steamrolling over Europe in real life, without a single hiccop to halt it's expanse. It just keeps chugging out units faster and faster and eventually there is nothing to stand in it's way and that's just not realistically possible in that way so it makes me cringe a little. There need to be more checks and balances against expansion. Other PI titles utilize "badboy" features such as EU3, where a nations actions slowly effect it's image across the globe and a nation that acts too aggressively without paying enough respect to do it through the proper methods will result in coalitions to bring that nation back down to size. But more importantly, there need to be better restrictions on military construction so that the individual units count for more. An England that just conquered France and is now simultaneously at war with Germany, Spain, Switzerland, and Italy should not be chugging along like a well oiled machine, pumping out hundreds of units in quick succession without any issue. War weariness should be a bigger issue that effects the economy in major ways to deter a singleminded goal to conquer the world as anyone. But the ability to mod should be able to remove those penalties or even an in game option to remove those limitations for the occasions when someone just wants to destroy everything. Versatility is a great thing this game has and should stick with. :)

That's what I can think of right now. I hope some of it helps and I really hope you guys continue to improve on the aspects that were great about SR2020. I'm really looking forward to seeing what you do with Cold War. :)
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Re: Anyone else frustrated with this game?

Post by hotchicken33 »

I think of this game a bit more to a grand strategy.. Rather than an RTS. This game doesn't fall into RTS if that's what you are talking about. Just because it is a strategy game, it doesn't mean that.
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Re: Anyone else frustrated with this game?

Post by wbonx »

I'm a programmer, this game is just bad programmed, maybe needs some routine optimization, a better management of the access to data or to use a lower approach, programming it in c++ and optimizing memory allocation and loops.

I worked with huge data, bigger then just half a million of units that this game has to manage.
The truth is that the average computer today, a good monocore or slow dual core, could run this game 10/20X faster if it was well programmed.

But still I really love the game, the developer did a good job and it's really special, despite the speed problem, that has to be solved.
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Re: Anyone else frustrated with this game?

Post by Balthagor »

wbonx wrote:I'm a programmer, this game is just bad programmed...
As you have never seen George's code, I'd be interested to know how you come to that conclusion.

And there is more than the units. There are the hexes, commodities, over a hundred AI players with their own diplomatic actions, spotting range calculations, pathing, etc. The game is highly optimized and the stability of the game speaks to the quality of George's code.

If you want to see the game without all the extra calculations, use the "endday" cheat and see how fast it runs.
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Re: Anyone else frustrated with this game?

Post by Lea »

wbonx wrote:I'm a programmer, this game is just bad programmed, maybe needs some routine optimization, a better management of the access to data or to use a lower approach, programming it in c++ and optimizing memory allocation and loops.
You must be Gregory House, M.D from programming. You already have estimated SR 2020 architecture and conceptual model, have analyzed subroutines timing and profiling.
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Re: Anyone else frustrated with this game?

Post by Fistalis »

wbonx wrote:I'm a programmer, this game is just bad programmed, maybe needs some routine optimization, a better management of the access to data or to use a lower approach, programming it in c++ and optimizing memory allocation and loops.

I worked with huge data, bigger then just half a million of units that this game has to manage.
The truth is that the average computer today, a good monocore or slow dual core, could run this game 10/20X faster if it was well programmed.

But still I really love the game, the developer did a good job and it's really special, despite the speed problem, that has to be solved.
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Re: Anyone else frustrated with this game?

Post by GIJoe597 »

Lea wrote:
wbonx wrote:I'm a programmer, this game is just bad programmed, maybe needs some routine optimization, a better management of the access to data or to use a lower approach, programming it in c++ and optimizing memory allocation and loops.
You must be Gregory House, M.D from programming. You already have estimated SR 2020 architecture and conceptual model, have analyzed subroutines timing and profiling.

Bad analogy as House is always right! :)
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Re: Anyone else frustrated with this game?

Post by BigWolf »

Speaking of optimization, there is one thing that could do with a change
Build Queues (can't remember if I've brought this up before, but I know I thought about this last year)
As far as I can tell, when you add a unit, it checks every single fab to find a queue to add the unit too, the delay is noticeable once you've got a few dozen fabs running

A solution could be, to add a global queue where the unit automatically goes, while keeping a fabs individual queue (you would still select a specific fab to add to it's queue)
When the fab has empty space, it will first check it's own (like now), but if the individual queue is empty, it would then check the global queue, and if anything is placed there, would grab the first unit

So basically, not a major change as such, just an addition to the current system, which I feel would be beneficial
On top of a quicker response time when adding units (the check every fab section of code for a free space is removed), it will also help keep fabs building without having to ensure each one has a unit in it's queue (and if you don't want it too build anything, you just deactivate it)
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Re: Anyone else frustrated with this game?

Post by Balthagor »

That would be optimizing for an unintended circumstance. Mass farming of fabs is not the intent.
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Re: Anyone else frustrated with this game?

Post by BigWolf »

But if it's not intended, why do you already see a minor delay with the default number of fabs for the bigger countries?

Eg. USA, click the build unit really fast (as in double click speed) on land fabs, and you'll see the queue number sometimes skips (delayed increase), and thats only at 30-ish
On the naval fab, the number of fabs is low enough that such a skip doesn't occur, and the number change happens in such a speedy fashion that the number keeps up with you

Optimization aside, I'd personally enjoy such a feature for my 2nd benefit
it will also help keep fabs building without having to ensure each one has a unit in it's queue
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