Another Outpost 2.

vizhon · Post by **vizhon** » Jul 05 2008

WARNING: Rant in progress.

I've made my initial bug post in the tech and support section to find my bug isn't a bug at all but a design choice.

I've made my top peeves list in the development section.

Now I'm going to go ahead and Rant here and then, unless this game gets nearly a whole rewrite I won't be bothering to post here again.

I'm not some pipsqueek gamer. I'm a 40 year old MENSA member that has been into RPGs and computers since the age of 7. Been an on and off Beta-tester/playtester for various tabletop and computer games, mostly of the MMO variety. I'm a hardcore wargamer. I have HOI2 (with Doomsday and Armageddon), EU3, World at War, Birth of America, Shattered Union, Cuban Missile Crisis as well as games like Gal Civ, Gal Civ 2 (with all expansions), Civ 2, 3 and 4 (with all expansions), Sword of the stars, and well, the list could just go on and on... I am also a the heart of the types of customers that gave SR 2010 what success it saw - The early adopter type for any (non-typical RTS) strategy game that comes out.

I almost liked 2010... It had it's serious limitations but it was a good attempt to hit a game of a truly impressive scope.... And that's where SR 2020 gets my rant worked up... It's NOT the massive scope that 2010 was... It may have more scale and through smoke and mirrors enough illusion of being bigger in scope than 2010, but it's really not. It's narrower... It's been dumbed down... It's been made into something closer to every other RTS, and it is no longer a game I have much if any interest in.

And that brings us to the subject of the thread... This move brings back memories of past experiences that were similar... The biggest one is Outpost 2.

Outpost was a breakthrough game, far ahead of it's time that was, like 2010 sorely limited by the confines of it's programming, and to a degree was buggy enough that it was hard to actually win the game for the bugs, but it was an amazing game in which the goal was to build a colony on some distant planet. There is from the start a sense of urgency like there is some great calamity that may be coming on earth that the colony is an escape from. In addition there were OTHER colonies being started and a chance one may end up on the same planet as you (not garraunteed but if it happenned, it was a major plot element). One started on earth, has limited probes to send to other stars, only enough fuel to make 1 trip and once in a system have limited probes to check out areas of planets and finding a safe place to break ground - Just surviving that far was a major accomplishment in the game. From there, it was just an enormous game that involved building a mostly subterranean outpost and trying to initial the terraforming of the planet (if it is even feasable with the planet you ended up on). It was a GREAT game that was in every way like an SR2010 of it's time. It got recognised, praised by those that got it, frowned on for where it fell short and really overlooked by the masses.

Sierra Online followed up the game with a sequel called Outpost 2... By the end of it's shelf life, they couldn't give the game away, and it effectively killed the Outpost series cold... What they had done is lost the whole lead up to the colonization, stuck you on a predesigned world and lead you through a series of scripted RTS missions, and for all effects it was just another RTS that happenned to have a plot losely resembling the one used in Outpost. Seirra liked the idea and but threw out everything the fans of Outpost had praised about the game in an effort to make it more mainstream and in the process shot themselves and that franchise in both feet at the same time.

Yes, I realise that the episodic story vs. persistant world went the other direction between SR2010 and SR2020, but the overall effects are still comparible... SR2020 has become bigger, more grand, but it's been dumbed down and most of what I did like about SR2010 isn't there anymore... It feels like a worldwide RTS now with as much depth as the board game version of Axis and Allies.

At this point, it looks like I'll be going back to playing HOI2:Armageddon for my strategy cravings and this game will likely be uninstalled from my system... Oh, I'll try it a few more times, just to give it the chance to earn my sympathy if not my admiration, but I have found nothing in it so far but dashed hopes. What's more, if SR2020 remains what it is and an SR2030 comes out, I don't care how good it is, I already been burned and unless SR2020 is fixed to the point where I at least feel I've gotten my money's worth, Battlegoat has LOST my future business... I only buy a lemon from a software studio once, and also mark it as a point against my loyalty to their publishers as well, so this doesn't fair well for Paradox.

SR2010, I did feel I got my money's worth, but this time I feel I been duped, treated like a sucker and ripped off.... Thanks so much for embracing mainstream, no matter how much you may claim you didn't.

There... I've said my piece and with that, I'm signing off... This game is far too broke for me to want to waste my time trying to fix it... I paid for it.. I'm the customer... I am not being paid for my time and my game wasn't free so I don't owe Battlegoat Studio's squat.

END RANT

gouldjg · Post by **gouldjg** » Jul 06 2008

A good rant, I can almost see where your coming from.

I personally think you could have waited for at least next weeks patch to be released though before dogging it down that much. Jeeez only been out a week.

Now I never played 2010 and went straight for this game. After buying this, I bought 2010 but there is a serious graphic problem for me right now with that game so am unimpressed at the moment with 2010.

Subject to it showing clear signs of improvements, this game may have drawn me in on a hooked basis due to the sheer fact the devs are willing to consider things. There is ample of evidence for that. Lets hope they make the right choices. BTW, I got my HOI DD Arma total realism project on standby in case it all flops. Just bought that game again for the 3rd time.

My general warning to the devs is for the speed of patches to be as prompt as possible as I could easily understand why people would just drop the game quickly if the major problems are not fixed quickly. Big titles get a bit longer but these type of games can die a death as many players are simply not playing the wait a year for patches promise anymore.

Now like I said, this title has just got my interest and probably many others. Just wish I could start spamming on other chat forums about this game to build more interest in it but need these patches to do their immediate and urgent fixes before I am doing that. Remember superpower 2 (all that promise then gone with the money as they say) I vowed never to buy of golem labs again.

Put in a decent ai and UI for military grouping and selection and I will think I got my monies worth but surely the devs can see the opportunity to snatch a very good market chunk here. Many have said it, this game can be a 10-year Gem given the resources and initial interest of the devs and modders. (We def need the modders cos they will update all the oobs etc etc for added realism)

Keep the strategy in-depth (DONT TONE IT DOWN) and constantly improve the game mechanics and modding guides then I would be sucked right in on this and buy any later expansion packs etc. That is what can make these titles sit on shelves for Â£40 and Â£50 and still get bought multiple times 2, 3, 4 years later. AT the moment I have the downloaded version but if the patch shows good promise next week, then I will be looking for a hard copy. Simple as that really.

I was a big big fan of SH3, the mere fact that the game was sooooo moddable accounted for me buying 4 copies overall plus I then bought sh4 and U-boat expansions which to be honest still should have been based in the Atlantic.

I would play and mod sh3, get bored a bit, go away then always come back.

Whilst I can appreciate the original posters concerns and also have a nagging fear in the back of my head that this game may have unfixable limitations or unsuitable game design e.g. no silos, no ai attempts at invasions etc, like others, I am going to give it one or two patches before dropping it into the "could have been a great game box"

.

Apollon · Post by **Apollon** » Jul 06 2008

gouldjg wrote:I personally think you could have waited for at least next weeks patch to be released

How do you know about the patch? Is it announced somewhere? Please tell me more!

suspect20 · Post by **suspect20** » Jul 06 2008

It has been said that it will most likely be out by the end of next week, no set date but its definitely being worked on and is intended to come out sooner rather than later.

NickW · Post by **NickW** » Jul 06 2008

*Edit*

Removed that flame. I feel bad!

Ashbery76 · Post by **Ashbery76** » Jul 06 2008

How has it been dumbed down from 2010? I don't see any difference in units,warfare,supply,tech,diplomacy,ect ?

onerobot · Post by **onerobot** » Jul 06 2008

Hi, I'm a hulking, super-intelligent 40 foot tall android made of testosterone and pure hatred who finds it quite pleasing to put out annual crossword puzzle books of twice the volume as those from Mensa - latin, annual crossword books. I (quite generously and with the utmost of manner and grace) have deigned to let fall The Sleepwalkers from my one hand and The Man Without Qualities from the other whilst giving a merry clap with the other few to descend from one of the effectively countless orgy mounds of Mount Olympus to politely you that your memories of the original Outpost are extremely rose tinted and opinions of its sequel and SR2020 entirely divorced from any manner of somewhat objective reality, not to mention those of sexy, learned people, even though that last point has probably driven itself so thoroughly and repeatedly into your skull that if concepts were stick your brain would be like a fine jelly.

As a superior person whose wisdom is one with the zeitgeist of the entirety of the mighty universe, continuing further would be completely useless - you know quite well, as an obviously thoroughly indoctrinated member or Mensa, what you must do. To yourself. Pretend that these words were written by Ayn Rand if you must.

Sincerely, and with love of folly,
Hate-o-tron 80000

Post by **Balthagor** » Jul 06 2008

Lets all remember to keep cool heads about discussions, eh? This is just a game.

The OP did warn that it was a rant and we will generally treat it as such, meaning it gets the attention it deserves. I can clearly see that the OP is not overly impressed by Supreme Ruler 2010 or 2020 and we have no problem with that, we know we can't please everyone.

But I believe that NickW has the right idea (didn't I say that in another thread too? DÃ©jÃ vu...) that the game is what the game is, and if it is a radical departure from what a player is looking for, the demo should be enough for them to know that they should look elsewhere. We will continue to improve the product and listen to all the ideas put forward, but with 4 of us working the design, it's already a heated battle to decide a course of action on some features. George and and will, for example, likely disagree on the AI building facilities till the day we die. If we tried to involve the community in the debates, nothing would ever get done. We will have to keep trying to listen to input and trust our collective experiences in the buisness.

We do hope to get as big a market share as possible, but we get plenty of conflicting requests, most notable to make it more complex/less complex. This means no matter what we do there are a lot of disappointed users.

As for the bugs, all of the "major" issues found since release should be addressed by the upcoming update.

cwake79605 · Post by **cwake79605** » Jul 06 2008

too bad that BG,paradox and stardock cant get together and make some kind of uber game. just imagine it game set in modern times with stardocks AI, paradox game play and BG attention to detail. the sad thing is irl these guys probably know each other, come on they all have links to paradox. here is to an ideal world where programmers egos don't get in the way of an awesome game.

Uglyr · Post by **Uglyr** » Jul 07 2008

My 5 cents:

SR2020 looks like a great game. As SR2010 and Superpower 1-2. But only "looks". For me all these games are perfectly unbalanced. And without balance and challenge all games are boring. What the pleasure if playing Russia in "World 2020" in a few months I can repay all debt and purchase all the tech from USA?

Moreover SR2020 is awkward. All those multiple units is a great feature... but how the hell can I control those hordes? Scrolling through dozens of different artillery designs in a small window to decide which is better is really annoying. I don't need realizm - I need at max 5 designs of unit type at a time. And mostly "sub-type" like long-range artillery, coastal artilery and missile artillery with 1-2 active designs in each. I've heard about "favourite units" in future patches - this may do the trick for production, but for battlefield IMO it won't be enough. IMO only custom player defined "sub-types" with "favourite" units may do the trick.

As for balance problems - I can hope only for modding like it is with EU3...

This game have great potential, but I fear that it will be left only as potential... :(

themistofelis · Post by **themistofelis** » Jul 07 2008

For sure the game could be far better and i have found many annoyances but overall it is fun to play .
There are not many country management games around ( and SuperPower 2 is not as good as this one ) specially ones that you can simply turn the military part of the game off and focus on economy & politics .

I think the OP got too far with the "worth my money" thing ; 40e for +30 hours of entertainment is a fair price , if you have not play it for more than 30 hours so how the hell you can judge it ? I have invest much more time and i am still learning ...
(Maybe it is the IQ thing???)

I understand the mentality to constantly ask for improvements in a gaming forum , i do it all the time but people not relying on their parents to cry about spending 40e is at least funny .

2Coats · Post by **2Coats** » Jul 07 2008

... overall it is fun to play

I utterly disagree with this!

I love the setting and most of what makes up the game, but there is no fun here. There is to much micromanagement and its to much of a clickfest for my liking. And it comes down to only one thing - translating the interface to be one that provides all the information needed to conduct operations on one screen. For instance, military ops such as setting up missile suppiles, configuring military settings, etc should all come under one screen, instead of being across several button activated ones. Perhaps that way different configuations could be setup, saved, stored and recalled depending on the situation - rather than having to tweak on the fly.

Sure the game is RTS but its a strategy game, not a tactical game.

Ive said this a number of times but dont seem to get much response, so I guess maybe Im hitting a nail on the head. The game is good, but it could be great with a better interface organised for decision making and not for playing hide and seek with the information!

Apollon · Post by **Apollon** » Jul 07 2008

2Coats wrote:
Ive said this a number of times but dont seem to get much response, so I guess maybe Im hitting a nail on the head. The game is good, but it could be great with a better interface organised for decision making and not for playing hide and seek with the information!

You're not alone, but perhaps you arrived some weeks too late. There was enough criticism about this, but the Goats said they would address the problem in the update. I think it would be best if we just waited for the patch, since many of our gripes may have become moot already.

bacorales · Post by **bacorales** » Jul 07 2008

Oh my god! what a NERD!

Actually the game has bugs, some annoying ones, but It is true that only a couple of weeks has passed since it`s release...

Now, guys from Battlegoat:

1- The game speed is annoying, I had a normal prefomance P.IV CPU and it takes 30/40 secs to finish a day in the fastest, and guys with dual cores takes longer!! The speed is a really important issue to solve - I understand that when you are at war you need toplay slow, but COME ON!! there's no much difference between normal and fastest... and apart from that, if I want toslow tha game I use "slow" for battles - so that argument is not valid... Please, solve this!!

2- Bug that countries are absorved in a second after load... another big issue. Guys you were testing the game for long andyou never realized of that issue??? It was the first bug I found !!

3- So many alliances for nothing... this is another thing that you should noticed in testing, and apart from that... What's the point of an alliance... nothing happens, when someone attacks you...

4- Alliances makes that any country gives you more money than you give in any transaction Money / Money,in the diplomacy panel... This is a cheat or a bug, whatever you wanted to call it, it sucks...

Maybe there are more bugs, but this 4 annoys me like hell, I actually quit playing because of this, I get bored in minutes... But generally the game is OK, very ambicius, I hope future patches fixes most of them...

2Coats · Post by **2Coats** » Jul 07 2008

Apollon wrote:
2Coats wrote:Ive said this a number of times but dont seem to get much response, so I guess maybe Im hitting a nail on the head. The game is good, but it could be great with a better interface organised for decision making and not for playing hide and seek with the information!
You're not alone, but perhaps you arrived some weeks too late. There was enough criticism about this, but the Goats said they would address the problem in the update. I think it would be best if we just waited for the patch, since many of our gripes may have become moot already.

Well thanks for that - I havent given up on the game... yet, but at the moment I just dont have the time to spend learning how to play the game, so if an update does come out I would be willing to have another go at it! However, I dont think that changes Id like to see are possible for the development team. Fingerscrossed though!