A Nice Gift

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Il Duce
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A Nice Gift

Post by Il Duce »

Following up the discussion in Diplomacy...

I gave a recon aircraft as a gift to a non-adjacent country.
Unlike giving a missile or a another unit, the plane simply changed affiliation and tried to fly there. It ended up 'bouncing' against my borders [as it could not transit the interposed regions], until it crashed.

This seems wrong. It should have been transparently shipped and added to the receiver's roster. After all, we don't see trucks ful of commodities crowding our highways...

Anyway, if the gift can not be transported, it should not be givable. I suppose that I [or actually the receiver], should be happy that its presence did not trigger an incursion.
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Balthagor
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Post by Balthagor »

This is a good point, and we've noticed some items like these and made notes. I'll add this to the notes. Wondering if I should move this into Issues or AI since it is not really a bug, just a bad design decision...
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Il Duce
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Post by Il Duce »

Dunno what the solution is, just relating the information.
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Post by BigStone »

Imho those offered units should simply disappear from the map.
Its not elegant but there is a chance that if you've offered units to dfferent
regions nd that regions declares war .... the units start fighting at your own base... :lol:

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Il Duce
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Addendum - ground units too

Post by Il Duce »

Similar situations result from gifts of ground units, specifically to non-adjacent allies (in this case even when a transit treaty exists with the intervening region).

In this case, the units simply remain where they are with only an affiliation badge change to indicate their presence.

....

Guy goes to the doctor - raises up his arm and wiggles his fingers.
He says "Doc - it hurts when I do that."
Doctor says "Don't do that."

....
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tkobo
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Post by tkobo »

Ive been thinking on this.

I am currently playing the EU campaign (making the Irish rule all :lol: )

Germany attacked poland :o - yes i was shocked :lol:

Well, i have a mutaul defense treaty with poland but my belli bar is not high enough to reasonably declare war on germany.


SOOOO. i decided to fund Polands war effort.I gave like 24 billion in cash and 80% of my fleet to Poland.

Now i knew about this issue with the units not managing to reach thier new home.

BUT i figured since germany and poland were at war, and germany was just a very short sail from my waters, that the new polish fleet would sail into the war against germany.

They didnt.

So than i started to look at the treaties to see which regions were allied with which(looking to see if transit was even possible thru other regions).
Almost no one is alied with anyone,which makes transit for the new units i wanted to give to Poland impossible.

Yes, i know this is getting long, but the point is just ahead.

My idea. Add in a new faction to the game.Make it international trade(or some such).

Make all regions have transit treaties with this new faction.

Make all units traded thru diplomacy temporarily part of this faction.

Make all units traded (now part of the International trade region/faction) move to thier new home.
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Balthagor
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Post by Balthagor »

The idea of traded units being transfered "magically" has been discussed a few times in other threads. I still don't support the idea...
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Il Duce
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Dead Cat Bounce

Post by Il Duce »

...Curious -
as mentioned, other goods as diplo transfers are transfered transparently. Are you thinking that without providing a transfer infrastructure that "Lend-Lease" strategies are to be more difficult? Will I have to build Lberty Ships?

Granted, before US entry into WWII the Germans were forced into merchant raiding to counter Lend-Lease, ultimately facilitating US entry into the war [as would be modelled by population rating for an ally: notably US pop was isolationist and there was even some debate about an alliance with Germany in the mid-30's], but this seems to be getting into a level of complexity that seems beyond game scope.

I can always just give MGoods or IGoods. Or is there a tech transfer issue as well? If I offer a unit that exceeds my ally's tech level will that speed up their development of that tech [as Stalin did with the B-29]?
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tkobo
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Post by tkobo »

I am not saying they should move magically in this sugestion.

What i am saying is that a "universal "faction be created that automatically has travel rights for all regions and that the traded units become part of that faction for travel purposes ,than travel across the map as needed to reach thier new home region.

The units would than switch to the faction recieving the traded units upon reaching that factions region.

IE If while playing as france i trade 2 infrantry units to Ukraine.The units while in frances region would become flagged as the "universal "faction.

They would travel across the map (thru france ,into germany, into poland,into ukraine,like an other unit with travels rights would.

Upon reaching Ukraine , they would change faction to that of Ukraine.

If the world market gets fleshed out, you could even use them as the "Universal" faction.Just give them travel rights to all regions.
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Balthagor
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Post by Balthagor »

I see what you're suggesting, but if you have a country surrounded, why would you let this faction send them military units, particularly if they where something like 4 F-22s or something else high tech? They would get shot down in transit... I don't see that as a perfect solution either.
as mentioned, other goods as diplo transfers are transfered transparently. Are you thinking that without providing a transfer infrastructure that "Lend-Lease" strategies are to be more difficult? Will I have to build Lberty Ships?
Production goods are assumed to be transfered through the World Market. The idea being that no one would dare attack the World Market (ya, I know, but that's our story and we're sticking to it! :P). Having the WM transfer units would be a little away from their "impartial" stance presented and would not make sense if they where boycotting you.
If I offer a unit that exceeds my ally's tech level will that speed up their development of that tech [as Stalin did with the B-29]?
If you offer them the tech, they get the tech. If you are at tech 100 and I trade you the F-22 Raptor design, you can immediatly begin producing them...
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Il Duce
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Cognitive dissonance

Post by Il Duce »

huh?

Either the WM is impartial [an Honest Broker], or they are impartial, i.e. can boycott you. Seems to me you can't have it both ways. Either they provide the marketplace and facilitate trade - implicitly [to me, anyway], ALL trade - OR they are an omnipotent but biased faction.

So my ears are ringing with cognitive dissonance here. I guess you devs will have to work this out for us. But, then, what is the difference between trading a tech [an abstract], or a unit [an implementation thereof]? If I can trade the tech without impedence, then it seems to me that I should be able to send an actual unit. [I guess the WM hasn't figured out how to filter fax traffic when I send the plans for a tech.]

And I still don't know if giving someone a UNIT beyond their tech level also confers either the tech or facilitates [speeds up] their development of that tech [that is, they could reverse engineer it now that they have one].

It doesn't matter a great deal, but if sending units will be conditioned both by the adjacency of the recipient AND the whim of the WM, you might just as well suppress the option in the diplo box entirely - it's too confusing and quirks like this really mess with the ease of game play.

BTW - I can gift MISSILES with no difficulty to a non adjacent recipient - they don't just change affiliation and launch [and land where?], so please make this consistent with the gifting of other physical units.
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Re: Cognitive dissonance

Post by red »

Il Duce wrote: And I still don't know if giving someone a UNIT beyond their tech level also confers either the tech or facilitates [speeds up] their development of that tech [that is, they could reverse engineer it now that they have one].
Owning a unit does not have any effect on researching the design.
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Post by bergsjaeger »

The idea being that no one would dare attack the World Market. :lol: ummm i dared several times and even took out their cities, units, bases, and industries. :lol: i wastes over 1600 tomahawks on the WM and never did they boycott me or take military action aganist me. :lol: Never get that war with the WM it seems. Oh well :lol:
Last edited by bergsjaeger on Sep 18 2005, edited 1 time in total.
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tkobo
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Post by tkobo »

Balthagor wrote: The idea being that no one would dare attack the World Market (ya, I know, but that's our story and we're sticking to it! :P).
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


That really was funny ya know.

Flesh out the world market, make it the monster it should be and it wont matter if people attack it (at least not to it,which will than just crush the attacker and give thier land to other more cooperative factions :lol: ).
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bergsjaeger
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Post by bergsjaeger »

:lol: I agree make em the monster they should be then i have a reason to wipe everything off the map WM owns. It seems they don't like nukes landing around them for some reason. ( :lol: have used nukes on them too)
In war destroy everything even the livestock.
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