Phony Baloney Budget Estimates

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tkobo
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#16 Post by tkobo » Feb 24 2006

I have run "no actaul trade", negative budgeted trade tests also, and in them the budgeted daily trade has never affected the income or treasury.

I'd bet on your having found a bug.

There was a negative income bug a while back that i dont think was ever solved,but it was extremely rare.Ive only seen it happen twice.
The bug created a loss of income that could not be found or explained.

Heres an older pic showing a no trade economy with a huge negative budgeted trade and the treasury not effected.

http://photobucket.com/albums/b217/tkob ... deecon.jpg
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uchuan2004
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#17 Post by uchuan2004 » Feb 24 2006

i play the game since a few month ago. yes. i notice some bugs in the game. especially for teh treasury and diplomacy department. for treasury department. the finacial calcultion got some problem. i think their calculation equation got some mistake. the budgeted trade is a budget only. it assume u sold all the commodities produce and less the amount of import commodities. but in the game some day u didn't import, someday u didn't export. so teh actual trade balance is not same with the budgeted trade balance. but, still i notice some bug in this system. u see, if u import electric from other country or world market, the cost will be damp high. hundred times higher than the actual power u import. i still i only lack some 10,000KW per day. assume WM price is $120 per KW. so the cost should be only $1.2M. but the electric cost shown in trade balance is $44M. this is ridiculous. for other commodities no problem. another problem is, how they actually calculate their costof manufacturing??? i think here got some serious bug. For example consumer good. the cost is dependent on the price of industrial good and electric. the the cost calculated by teh game is totally wrong. i don't know how the calculate it, but in the game this cost is only dependent on inflation and labor cost. and there is many more bugs. ah, lazy to write anymore. and also i can't stand with the stupid AI during diplomacy. hv the developer improve it? i will know soon. coz i just finish downloaded the 4.42 patch.

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Time to fix import/export bug

#18 Post by Eric Larsen » Feb 27 2006

tkobo wrote:I have run "no actaul trade", negative budgeted trade tests also, and in them the budgeted daily trade has never affected the income or treasury.

I'd bet on your having found a bug.

There was a negative income bug a while back that i dont think was ever solved,but it was extremely rare.Ive only seen it happen twice.
The bug created a loss of income that could not be found or explained.
tkobo,
Look at the Treasury screens showing Income & Expenses separately (with the Trade screen). You'll find trade surplus at the bottom of the income screen and trade deficit at the bottom of the expense screen. The budgeted trade amount is part and parcel of the total budget and it does impact the treasury. I've watched many turns where I was able to calculate my next turn's treasury by just looking at the daily loss from the total budget and subtracting it from my treasury. The trade surplus/deficit is included and if it should not be then there is a bug that needs fixing.

I even saw where I was running a trade surplus while running a small budget deficit. I only took that small hit to my treasury which means I was adding money to my treasury for phantom trade that did not happen since I had no possible trading partners. :o
Thanks,

Eric Larsen

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Balthagor
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Re: Time to fix import/export bug

#19 Post by Balthagor » Feb 27 2006

Eric Larsen wrote:Look at the Treasury screens showing Income & Expenses separately (with the Trade screen). You'll find trade surplus at the bottom of the income screen and trade deficit at the bottom of the expense screen. The budgeted trade amount is part and parcel of the total budget and it does impact the treasury...
This is one area I prefer the sidescreen <Ctrl+Shift+T> since it gives you both on the same page. You are correct that if you have a trade surplus it is shown on the income screen or if you have a trade deficit it is shown on the expenses screen but the income value on the first screen is calculated without adding in the trade surplus and the expenses screen is calculated without adding in the trade deficit. I know it is a little confusing, it's on our list as an area to improve on.

If you have a first panel Surplus (Surplus/Deficit > 0) and no imports/exports your treasury goes down. If you have a first panel Deficit (Surplus/Deficit < 0) and no imports/exports your treasury goes up. No one has sent us any savegames showing a bug in this system.

The formula is [yesterday's "treasury" + today's "(daily) surplus/deficit" + today's "Previous Day Trade" = today's "treasury]
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#20 Post by Balthagor » Feb 27 2006

uchuan2004 wrote:...the budgeted trade is a budget only. it assume u sold all the commodities produce and less the amount of import commodities...
This is the reason why there is both a budget and a previous day. The reports can only budget for what you are reasonably expected to sell. It never knows when you might over/undersell stock.
uchuan2004 wrote:...if u import electric from other country...
Bad example, there are know issues with electricity. The fact that you pay more for it than is reported has been mentioned in the bug reports section and we're looking into that. We should stick to industries the other industries since this one is being checked for bugs.

uchuan2004 wrote:...another problem is, how they actually calculate their costof manufacturing???
I have asked George to answer some of this but I can assure you that the cost of a raw material directly affects the products that use the material.
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tkobo
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#21 Post by tkobo » Feb 28 2006

http://photobucket.com/albums/b217/tkob ... trade2.jpg

Do the math and you'll see that the trade surplus is NOT added to the income.

IE- add all the figures in the income window EXCEPT trade surplus and you'll see it is NOT added into the end income figure on window one.

They (surpluse trade in income window and deficit trade in expense window) are just window dressing.They are just bad estimates,that are NOT used to figure actual income .

The formula given above by Bal is correct and working as far as i can see.
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Eric Larsen
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Doing the Math

#22 Post by Eric Larsen » Mar 16 2006

Balthagor wrote: This is the reason why there is both a budget and a previous day. The reports can only budget for what you are reasonably expected to sell. It never knows when you might over/undersell stock.

I have asked George to answer some of this but I can assure you that the cost of a raw material directly affects the products that use the material.
Chris,
I did the math on the income and expense summaries and discovered that my trade surplus actually did not get added into my income summary on the main page. However in doing the math I discovered an error in the expense summary. I have significant unit training going on, to the tune of $6,461 billion per day, and I find my total expense summary to be correct but the expense summary breakdown page is lacking that salient expense. I'll send a saved game file soon so you can see the booboo.

As for trade since it is so nebulous I think it far better to just use KISS theory here and just multiply actual previous day's trade by 365. The convoluted algorithm used now just throws everything out of whack and gives a very false impression. It can't calculate zero trade when you have no possible trade partners properly so better to dumb that down to actual times 365 so you always get a a zero trade balance when zero trade is happening.
Thanks,

Eric Larsen

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#23 Post by Balthagor » Mar 16 2006

I'll pass that suggestion along to George, the economic model is his design...
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tkobo
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#24 Post by tkobo » Mar 16 2006

Military training is part of the Military Spending figure.Its included in this figure.

Which is broken down item by item on the military spending window.
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