More Tradeable Research Items

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Eric Larsen
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More Tradeable Research Items

#1 Post by Eric Larsen » Jun 16 2006

I'd like to see more items that are currently not tradeable to become tradeable. I'm still scratching my head trying to ascertain why some society and other science-type techs aren't tradeable. It sure would be nice to be able to give the AI's better economy techs they never research as I've found they do help the little guys run their economies better and thus make better opponents. I got a laugh out of giving the AI the Clean Coal Tech that reduced it's coal power production 10% and then it started buying my excess power when it hadn't before. But that little poison pill still helped it with it's ecology. It sure would be nice to be able to give them the conservation techs that would help them immensely since they don't build production facilities.

It really seems strange that very few military techs aren't tradeable yet so many society/science type techs aren't tradeable. I'd think that the NBC warfare techs ought to be about the only ones not tradeable. Don't want to give the neighbors the ability to blow you to smithereens.
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Eric Larsen

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#2 Post by Balthagor » Jun 16 2006

Non-tradable is not a balance limitation we've placed, if a tech is not tradable it is because it would not be physically possible. How do you give someone digital roads? They need to refit their roads to be digital.

So you can give someone Fuel Cell technology but Vehicle Retrofit for Fuel Cells they have to do themselves.

And there are military techs that are non-tradable, things like NBC preparedness you can't give someone, they have to develop it themselves.
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Eric Larsen
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What's the Real Tech??

#3 Post by Eric Larsen » Jun 19 2006

Balthagor wrote:Non-tradable is not a balance limitation we've placed, if a tech is not tradable it is because it would not be physically possible. How do you give someone digital roads? They need to refit their roads to be digital.

So you can give someone Fuel Cell technology but Vehicle Retrofit for Fuel Cells they have to do themselves.
Chris,
The tech Digital Roads is not the same as the actual improvement. Once a region has the Digital Roads tech they can then refit their roads. This also begs the question of implementation as once the knowledge of Digital Roads has been accomplished that doesn't mean that all the roads become magically digital instantly.

The Digital Road tech is not the actual digital road itself but the knowledge of how to make it. Lots of those conservation techs are the same way and you're confusing the knowledge of the tech with the final product of the tech incorrectly. I think there should be more lag time between researching some of those conservation techs and the time it takes effect. Some are intantaneous when they should not be. I think more techs ought to have incremental benefits after being researched to take into account the lead time manufacturing then takes to accomplish the upgrade.

Why can't I give someone vehicle refit for fuel cells if I can give them fuel cells to begin with? Once again the tech involves the knowledge of how to do something, it is not the actual something itself. If I can give fuel cell tech knowledge then I should be able to give the accompanying retrofit tech knowledge as well.

Since the AI's aren't smart enough to research these smart techs then we should be able to help them out by giving the smart techs to the AI's. I agree that NBC techs ought to be taboo since they are such a quantum leap forward in destructive power and thus a danger to the giving region.

Please do not confuse the knowledge of research with the actual item. Knowledge is easily transferable; just look at all the laptops that seem to get stolen with critical information on them. Your argument is weak and needs to be reviewed. Research gives knowledge then manufacturing gives that knowledge form and substance. Giving knowledge should always be possible except for those techs considered too dangerous to give away.
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Eric Larsen

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Re: What's the Real Tech??

#4 Post by Balthagor » Jun 19 2006

Eric Larsen wrote:The tech Digital Roads is not the same as the actual improvement. Once a region has the Digital Roads tech they can then refit their roads…doesn't mean that all the roads become magically digital instantly.
Actually, it is the same thing. We designed it to be the technology and the implementation all in one since it is a minor tech. You are correct that we could divide this into two techs - the technologies for digital roads and making the existing roads digital – in which case the first would be tradable, the second would not.
Eric Larsen wrote:Lots of those conservation techs are the same way and you're confusing the knowledge of the tech with the final product of the tech incorrectly. I think there should be more lag time between researching some of those conservation techs and the time it takes effect.
Actually, you’ve misunderstood how these techs are done for game purposes. The “time to take effect” is included in the development time of the technology as per the design. I do not like the idea of technologies such as digital roads or fuel cells “phasing in”. I think it would confuse many players.
Eric Larsen wrote:I think more techs ought to have incremental benefits after being researched to take into account the lead time manufacturing then takes to accomplish the upgrade.
This idea has been discussed among the dev team but we feel that if a tech should come into effect in (for example) 4 phases, then each one should be it’s own tech. For now I don’t expect much change in that area.
Eric Larsen wrote:Why can't I give someone vehicle refit for fuel cells if I can give them fuel cells to begin with?
“Giving” them the information on fuel cell technology is possible. Instantly making their entire land force have fuel cells in their vehicles is not. One is the core technology, the other is the application to their equipment. It cannot be physically given.
Eric Larsen wrote:Since the AI's aren't smart enough to research these smart techs then we should be able to help them out by giving the smart techs to the AI's.
I’d much rather we spend our time making the AIs proceed with researching the actual techs…
Eric Larsen wrote:Please do not confuse the knowledge of research with the actual item. Knowledge is easily transferable; just look at all the laptops that seem to get stolen with critical information on them. Your argument is weak and needs to be reviewed. Research gives knowledge then manufacturing gives that knowledge form and substance…
I believe I am not the one confused by the design, it is clear to me that what cannot be traded are technologies that fall into the “form and substance” category. My argument is quite clear that being able to turn another regions entire industrial infrastructure from a fuel based industry to a fuel cell based industry in one trade is beyond comical, its purely impossible.
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Eric Larsen
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A Good Explanation

#5 Post by Eric Larsen » Jun 20 2006

Balthagor wrote:Actually, it is the same thing. We designed it to be the technology and the implementation all in one since it is a minor tech. You are correct that we could divide this into two techs - the technologies for digital roads and making the existing roads digital – in which case the first would be tradable, the second would not.

I’d much rather we spend our time making the AIs proceed with researching the actual techs…
Chris,
Okay so now I understand that it's Research & Development combined, something not made very clear in the documentation. I kind of guessed this was the case but had to make sure. So why isn't the development part like the making of Digital Roads more cost dependent upon the size of the region and the number of road hexes? Not very fair for a small region to pay the same cost for Digital Roads as a very large region with oodles of roads. Same with vehicle or ship refits, the more vehicles and ships the more it should cost to refit them.

I agree wholeheartedly that time needs to be spent making the AI at the World level, and even the shorter scenarios, R&D the good stuff, not just rinky dink unit designs. I like that one plane I saw had Waste Management 3 as a direct prerequisite. Maybe there should be more unit design links back to basic techs like this. Also more linkage between techs like composite materials and stuff like chameleon armor would be nice. I gave the AI all the good economy booster techs I could and I saw that those helped improve the AI. Since the AI is so poor at building or upgrading economic facilities the conservation techs are truly necessary for them to research. Plus it's sad to see the AI stop researching techs altogether because it's researched it's very limited list. The AI should be researching all those implementation techs not tradeable at a minimum.
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Eric Larsen

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Re: A Good Explanation

#6 Post by Balthagor » Jun 20 2006

Eric Larsen wrote:…So why isn't the development part like the making of Digital Roads more cost dependent upon the size of the region and the number of road hexes? … Same with vehicle or ship refits…
The simple answer is a limitation in the engine. I would generally be in favour of this idea. It is something we can keep in mind for our wishlist.
Eric Larsen wrote:…I like that one plane I saw had Waste Management 3 as a direct prerequisite…
I actually posted on the forum somewhere that the prerequisite you’re mentioning was an error. It will no longer be a prerequisite after update 5. Having more crossovers in the techs is something I’m in favour of also, but that requires finding the appropriate techs without bloating the techtree with inconsequential techs.
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