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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sep 15 2005 
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General

Joined: Dec 22 2004
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Was lucky to find a saved game with a ~95% filled techlevel.
Run the game with the lvl slider at 0% and a few projects
in the queue.. and guess... after a few months i achieved a new level.
So there goes unbudgetted money into the techlevel

If have to note that my ministers priority was set on - Improve Tech Level-
So this could maybe be your problem....
(Altough i've to admitt it again... 80% is much... :-? )

Cheers


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PostPosted: Sep 15 2005 
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Joined: Aug 24 2005
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Yeah, I can also confirm that tech level is slowly increasing even if no money is allocated for that. However, in this case the 3 sliders are misleading - why there are 3 sliders to set the distribution of the money then? Their total value must be 100%, so the average user assumes that these sliders distribute ALL of the money what is injected into research.

I can imagine, that this 0% tech level increase is caused by other factors than the money invested in research - for example, this simulates the diplom work of the university students :)


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PostPosted: Sep 15 2005 
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One factor in the sliders is that the formulas do not allow for overspending on the technology itself. If you overspend on technology because of the slider's distribution of funds, that extra is split evenly between tech and efficiency... or so George tells me :)

I have asked him to come take another look at this thread when he has some time.

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PostPosted: Sep 16 2005 
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Bigstone: One comment before we get confused here.

I already had the money flow didvided, originally over 2 billion a day, about 600 million for the techs. That makes 200 million for one tech each day (had 3).

Then with the amount of time it needed to be researched (100 days), that makes i had to pour in 20 billion dollars, to research a 4.5 billion dollar tech... ( even when the money gets didvided on the basis of more money needed to research the tech --> more money is allocated to it, there are NO techs which cost 20 billion dollars (even more because I KNOW for a fact that one costed around 4.5 billion dollars, so the rest of the 15.5 billion (20 minus 4.5 makes 15.5) must also be allocated to the other two)).



This isnt about the sliders, for arguments sake i had them all set at 33% (actually more was invested in tech and efficiency). But you see i already had those calculated.

This was all done by a 130%+ efficiency level.


I know techs can be researched faster then 100 days (they all we e generally around 100 days), have seen some take 30 days. (even 2 days in my montenegro scenario).


Thats why i want to know, calcualted all by that one tech, where does 80% of my invested money in that tech go? Into thin air is still the best guess I have.

And thats why i said the comments by george didnt help to clear up this fact.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sep 16 2005 
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Joined: Dec 22 2004
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Ok.. these researchs things are quit fuzzy....
I'm beginning to believe that the devs use some quantummechanical
equations to determine the researchtimes...

We need someone like N.Bohr here at the research board ... :D

Cheers


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PostPosted: Sep 16 2005 
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Well, ive read this a few times now and i still have no idea what your saying or how you reached your conclusion.

How about you give a specific example.

Name the techs.
Tell us the slider settings
Tell us the time research took
Tell us how much investment total is set to

Than show us using the exact math what your saying and the conclusion your reaching.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sep 16 2005 
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Well with the money divided like i have it always in a game right now i can reseach most techs in 15 days give a day or 2 and that's with a eff. of only 160% or close to it sometimes. and all i'm putting into research is 6.7 billion. I have slots for 73 (i think) techs though. The new unit techs i can research within 20 days too.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sep 17 2005 
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tkobo wrote:
Well, ive read this a few times now and i still have no idea what your saying or how you reached your conclusion.


Damn is it still not clear.
One final attempt!

Tech name: Dont know, worth 4.5 billion dollars
Research time: 100 days
Total techs researched: 3 --> all globally the same amount of money


Investment: 2 billion dollars per day into ALL research
Sliders: all set at 33% ( for argument sake!, tech and effiency were set at 40% actually!)
Investment in tech advance: 600 million (2000M/3=600 million and some change)
Efficiency: 130%+

Investment in 1 tech: 200 million (600 million/3=200 million)
Total amount payed when tech is finished: 100 days times 200 million is 20,000 million or 20 billion.

Tech worth: 4.5 billion
Discrepancy: 20 billion (actual input) - 4.5 billion (cost stated for that tech) makes a 16.5 billion dollar gap!

So what makes that 20%, well thats the percentage i get when I see my input (20 billion) and also see the investment needed for that tech to be researched (which is said to be only 4.5 billion). Then i divide those two 4.5/20= around 20%.
So i can calculate all of this (again) and I have a netto yield into tech advance for that tech of only 20%.


2. You can argue that those 2 other techs were probably worth more and thats where your money was spend. In a sense, the investment for this research item is maxed out and the money flows over to the other 2. Meaning there is a smaller input of money into this tech and more in the other 2. But that would mean those other 2 techs would need an investment of OVER 20 billion dollar per item. And there are no techs in the game which need an investment that high. If there are, I didnt research them in this example!


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PostPosted: Sep 17 2005 
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Okay,im still not following.

But im gonna mention something I dont see included in your breakdown.

Since you can only spend so much /day/individual tech (its capped)
Any money spent (total investment) over the money used by the tech is diverted to efficiency and tech level.


Numbers here are made up, just for an example.

Say the tech your researching can only have 100 million a day put towards it.
Say your total investment is 600 million.


say your sliders are 33/ 33/ 33 (just to make it easy)

so by the sliders-200 mil would go to each of Tech research/tech eresearch efficiency/ tech level.

BUT the cap means only 100 million can go to the tech research.

SO that other 100mil is NOT spent on tech research,but is instead diverted to tech level and tech research efficiency.

So the real breakdown is more like 100mil tech research/ 250 mil tech level/250 mil tech research efficiency.

Now how the caps are decided per tech i am not sure( i think its the money value given for the tech to be researched/amount of days <but not sure).I think theres a thread around here that explains part of it.

Ill look for it.

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PostPosted: Sep 17 2005 
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Okay, i went back and looked at your example yet again.

I think i understand what your saying.

So im going to take your example numbers and run them.

Tech name: Dont know, worth 4.5 billion dollars
Research time: 100 days
cap/day=45mil

total investment 2 bil.
sliders 33%
Break down as per the sliders =circa 600 million per slider

tech research = 600 mil
tech efficiency = 600 mil
tech level = 600 mil

now add in the cap adjustment.
Cap affected breakdown.

tech research =45mil
tech efficiency = 878 mil
tech level =878 mil

Total time for tech to be researched 100 days.
100 days times the adjusted tech research investment due to cap 45mil
=4.5 bil

exactly what the tech should cost.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sep 17 2005 
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Joined: Dec 22 2004
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Hmm.. i don't think there is a -cap-
The amount of days for a new tech is a estimation of the
total investments in your R&D.
It's closely related to your treasurie.
You can see it for yourself if you pick a unresearched tech
in the avialable projects list.You'll see that the amounts of
days changes when your treasurie change...

Heankie:... maybe you can try to run that same
R&D story but now with a -recommended- investment..

Cheers


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PostPosted: Sep 17 2005 
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http://www.bgforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4741

This thread explains it well.
Key points:


Decimatus
Quote:
I think what he is saying is, that if you try and put all of your $575m R&D budget into technologies(IE 100%) and you are only researching lets say a harpoon missile which costs $10m, then the other $565m goes into tech level and efficiency even though they are set to 0%.

I don't know if the $10m harpoon tech(represented in the diplomacy window) will actually cost you $10m of your R&D budget, but it seems you can only spend a certain amount per day on a single tech.



Balthagor
Quote:
Ya, what he said

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sep 17 2005 
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Glad you know what i am talking about. The thread you mentioned is also this one, George said something like that but one page back :D.


And thanks for the breakdown etc. (one minor point I have always mentioned I was researching 3 different techs at the time, you overlooked it).


I can see now where i could be wrong.

There indeed can be a cap! I never believed it would exist at such a high value, like 100+ days. But maybe it can be so.
Because i have seen techs go for 45-50 days and even once a tech each 2-3 days. But at that last time, I had an efficiency that was over 1200%. So maybe efficiency lowers the day cap for research items.


There are 2 IF's i want to make here:

1. Why (if it was running at maximum buildtime) did the amount of days go up, when i added another tech (which had a low amount of money needed to be researched, below 10 billion dollars for sure!). Because i really payed enough per day, for that new research item to be researched at it's (maybe) maxed out speed!
It cant be changes in efficiency, because they dont happen so abdrupt! And it wouldnt be a real significant change anyway.


2. If the case is, there is a day cap involved. If research efficiency lowers that cap....

Then this game has A SERIOUS feedback problem!

Like flying in the dark, with sunglasses on. You just hope you dont crash....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sep 17 2005 
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Ooops... misted that topc... :oops:

But :

but it seems you can only spend a certain amount per day on a single tech.

I wanna know how this is calculated.... :-?

Cheers


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sep 17 2005 
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the time it took me to write my one message as a reply to tkpobo, you both had time to fill the gaps in between me.

3 messages, 2 between my reply to tkobo and one after fast... :D


I stand for most what i said.


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