Paying WAY to much for research! Issue?

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haenkie
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Paying WAY to much for research! Issue?

#1 Post by haenkie » Sep 02 2005

I have written some stuff down about my science. THis was stated a small bit here to: http://www.bgforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=5753


I am overpaying SO much for my science! BG this is totally wrong!

I have 3 research project simultanious, i am paying currently 1,800 M/day (thats 1800 million!!).

Now for arguments sake i have everything divided equally. 1/3 into efficiency etc (it isnt i have MORE in efficiency and general science!!!)

Thats 600 million a day for tech research!
With 3 techs makes 200 million per tech A day.

One of these techs costed me 4,500 million total. That should take 22.5 days, but I have to wait a staggering 106 days to finish it.


Where does this astounding long period come from?

Why is it so weirdly long?

The_Blind_One
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#2 Post by The_Blind_One » Sep 03 2005

Just pouring in money won't work with research.

Sure I won't deny that pouring in money won't speed it up but it won't make it equally speed up.

Real world;
It's like this...currently we are developing fusion power, we can pour in 40 billion dollars over 20 years and the research is done, but pouring in 40 billion dollars in 10 years isn't going to make it finished after those 10 years. Research takes time, the faster u want it done the more exponentially money u need to pour in, the cheapest way of developing things is waaaay later.

Like it's cheaper and easier to research how cruise missile's work nowadays then it was 50 years ago. Same goes for research :D

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haenkie
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#3 Post by haenkie » Sep 07 2005

can soemone non-dutch give me a hint to :D

(just kidding with you). but i want to hear what the meaning is of such a low yield in research



And can someone correct the name of this forum into reseaRch

where is the R???

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George Geczy
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#4 Post by George Geczy » Sep 07 2005

Research spending combines a LOT of different variables and factors, making it hard to always see the direct relationships between spending and results. Chris also keeps wanting me to look more at this, but to give you some idea of the factors being considered:

- Number of Research Centers
- Amount of dollars spent on Research
- Limits to how fast an item can be researched based on the number of centers you have (ie, like the example above, sometimes a research project just can't take more money spent on it, it can only progress so fast; this 'top speed' is usually based on a combination of research efficiency and the number of slots dedicated to the project).
- Region's total GDP and population size - there's only so much of your population and economy that can be dedicated to the field of research. A high GDP and population region with three research centers will be able to spend more on research than a lower GDP and/or population region.

All these factors, and a few more, get thrown into the Research blender, and the results are then calculated.

When you compare two regions with just a single difference (ie, the number of research centers, or the number of slots dedicated to a project) you can see the changes clearly. When there are a lot of differences, they start to inter-react and the results are harder to analyze.

-- George.

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haenkie
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#5 Post by haenkie » Sep 08 2005

Thanks for the reply!

But can you soemthing about my above example. I have around 7 centers and about 120M + population. I dont spend at the max right now. But it shoudlnt matter in my example given. The most important stuff is in there, a 130+ efficiency, a huge amount of money, i divided it equally (although more IS allocated to research), but still 80% of that money isnt accounted for.
And when i put an extra project in, the current projects time INCREASES. So i can only conclude they are NOT maxed out at this moment. With 80% of my money flowing in and one extra project it doesnt matter how much that project costed (was not that much).

My max number of slots is 32 or so.

All in all i got a clue now, but they still dont account for the loss of 80% of my money put into researching projects....


Is this normal?

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#6 Post by Guest » Sep 08 2005

Im confused. How do you know 80% of the money is unaccounted for ?

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#7 Post by szabfer » Sep 09 2005

I think it is possible to calculate the waste:
- you know, how much money are you investing into research every day
- you know the cost of the technology
- you know what % of money is allocated on the tech research
- you know the research efficiency

Well, I've just started to think about the same problem... in a different topic we already discussed that researching technologies in parallel is a waste of money - the most effective research method is to work on techs one by one...

But this seems to be not OK, if we accept that pouring money into the research won't have too much effect after a certain amount
(it can be right anyway... scientists need time to make the breakthroughs, and also one more technician won't have too much effect on the designs when the design group reaches a certain number of designers....)

BUT: why will have a big impact on the research time if I wan't to research two or more techs simultaneosly... ?

I feel that the research slots should be independent: if I have 3 slots filled with tech and max out the money of the research then all 3 techs should be researched almost on their maximum speed - just because I have three separate teams working on different projects and they receive the correct amount of funding.

It should work somehow similar as the construction works in HOI2 - the construction jobs are prioritized. When the first job have the full amount of resources allocated, the remaining resources automatically goes to the second job and so on...

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haenkie
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#8 Post by haenkie » Sep 09 2005

szfaber you are actually wrong. If there is some sort of inherent stop to the amount of money you can pour in per tech (not what George says, but has been commented here and elsewhere) researching more techs at once is better! They are all being researched at their top speed instead of one at its top speed!

But it isnt like that. I knwo for sure that techs can be researched much faster then 100 days per tech.

The 80% unaccounted for is a conclusion from my first post.

With a third allocated to tech research, the money required to research that tech and the research being done 5 times longer then should be (dividing tech price by money input). I see an 80% gap. Which i cannot explain by George's comment.

I have a 130% efficiency, so where does it go?

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#9 Post by szabfer » Sep 12 2005

Hmmm... I'm sorry but I don't really understand, why I'm wrong.

I wrote that currently if I research more than 1 tech (lets say 2 or 3), then the research speed of all techs will be far below under their maximum EVEN if the maximum amount of money is provided to each of them.

So
1. researching more than 1 tech is the waste of money.
2. Investing too much money in 1 tech research is also a waste of money.

Comment? Did I miss something?

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Balthagor
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#10 Post by Balthagor » Sep 12 2005

If two researched simultaneously is is not faster than one after the other, than your research spending is being limited by one of the other factors George mentioned. I did some testing before update #2 because this was a big issue for me. Don't remember what techs I used but found two that had the same time to research. One at a time, each was about 300 days but simultaneous was about 520 days each or something close to that. I believe I used Ontario in the Canada map to test it...
Chris Latour
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szabfer
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#11 Post by szabfer » Sep 13 2005

Opsss.... we already discussed in another topic :oops: However I still think that this benefit is very-very small and you can get the first tech much earlier if you research one by one.

Back on track: what do you think about the "missing" money problem described by haenkie?

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Balthagor
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#12 Post by Balthagor » Sep 13 2005

Since George has already discussed it, there's nothing really for me to add...
George Geczy wrote:...Chris also keeps wanting me to look more at this...
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bergsjaeger
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#13 Post by bergsjaeger » Sep 13 2005

I use this pattern everytime i research and i put the spending to the max.

5% to tech level
63% to tech
32% to eff.

If u put more money into the tech instead of the other 2 ur techs will have less days required and I have to build at least another center to get the eff to go up but most of the time i build 4 or so. I have had my eff go over 200% and that was the first scenario of a lower population and GNP region. And i can have techs one at a time be done in 30 days or less.
Last edited by bergsjaeger on Sep 15 2005, edited 1 time in total.
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haenkie
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#14 Post by haenkie » Sep 14 2005

Hmmm this didnt help me at all.




I want to knwo where 4/5 of my input of money in techs goes which i cant account for.

Thats my question. The only factor i am able to verify (general level and efficiency are by nature not verifiable for me) and I see a huge gap in input and output.

Where does it go?

If the answer is in those general terms, then you are saying i have to accept 4/5th is lost somewhere...

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#15 Post by BigStone » Sep 14 2005

Hmmm.. i've the feeling (can't proof it) that it goes into
the gen tech level even if your slider is at 0%...
Altough 80% is a bit much... :-?

Cheers

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