Well thats my last multiplay game for a while

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tkobo
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Well thats my last multiplay game for a while

#1 Post by tkobo » Dec 04 2005

the games all run the same.

The agressor aggresses, no one stands up to him but me, and i get my butt kicked.

Its fun , but far to predictable. People are just far to shortsighted and self oreinted.

Things like teamwork to stop an agressor take a HUGE back seat to sillyness.
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haenkie
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#2 Post by haenkie » Dec 04 2005

thats the way riskis palyed, everybody stands up against the agressor and then there is another and another.

YOu have to be slick to win on that board...

I havent played MPs before.

I shouldnt stop if i was you.

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Balthagor
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#3 Post by Balthagor » Dec 04 2005

How many ppl have you managed to get in your MP games? I usually find that the more ppl, the more complex the interactions and that starts to change the balance. I've found 1vs1 to be the hardest as you instantly know your "opponent". Perhaps you might want to try some MP games where you put all human players in weak to moderate regions and work for allied victory?

If I get a chance (been so busy between work and a baby on the way) I'll try and join one of the MP games. If you manage to get into the same game I'm in, you should find that I like the "deeper" games that your suggesting.

Another thing that is tough is to know what regions to assign. You can easily balance a MP game by giving new players advantageous positions. Sometimes isolating a strong player behind AIs is useful. If they try and just swallow the AI region you can try and support that region or stall them until the WM kicks them out and kills their economy.
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Seydlitz
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#4 Post by Seydlitz » Dec 04 2005

I hope you aren't referring to the game last night in particular. You had a tough region to play, and I was on the other side of the map, across two hostile regions from where you were.

Once you went out, me and red fought for another three hours or so and then decided to put it off until a later date, so its not like he just steamrolled.

But I definitely agree that the more, the merrier.

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tkobo
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#5 Post by tkobo » Dec 04 2005

Actaully, i am refering to ALL three games. As i state clearly above,the behavior of the players is not only predicable but the same everytime.


Major issues:

Players:
1)Will pick the most defendable position they can.Almost aways with their back to the wall (covered by wm territory or otherwise unassailable hexs)

2)Will almost NEVER pick a weak region. Three games, 3 players,EACH game, two of the three, players NEVER ONCE picked a region that was hard to play.
Things like region position, economy and unit strength ALWAYS decided what they picked.


3)Will be unwilling to form together and fight a common threat. They will always hold back and hope to let others shoulder the fighting.Related to but NOT delegated by number 1 on list.

4)Will always look to further there own short term goals even if it hurts them in the long run. OFTEN because they cant see the long run.

5)Will always prey on AI regions to increase their power BECAUSE AI REGIONS ARE NO THREAT TO THEM and they count on the other players doing nothing.


AI regions:

1) serve NO prupose other than to be gobbled up by aggressors.

2) Even when they outnumber and attack a player region ,as high as 6 AI regions waging war on ONE player region,they themselves are no real direct threat to the player.
They serve only to GIVE their strength to an aggressor and tie up player forces allowing other players to pounce on a spread out player target.

3) Far to easily manipulated by human players,even when its CLEARLY against that AI region's best interest to allow themselves to be.


I am so remined of gankers in mmos who will only play the power classes and only attack when sure of victory.
Sure they might actaully be the better player (they of course might NOT be also), but we'll never know as they never play a class (region) that makes it hard for them.

THREE games, almost exactly the same behavior and outcome.

While the game is indeed fun to play in multiplayer , the endings are almost a forgone conclusion because the behavior is also.

Sadly this means, that like in a mmo, the player who does NOT act this way is forced to either start to, or be crushed everytime.

A forgone conclussion.

So although the road to the end may be very fun, the end itself is rarely different and most often decided before the game even began.


Solution is simple.

Make starting regions eqaul and remove the AI from multiplayer games.
Sadly no such map exists yet.
And i question whether many would play one if it did, because people WANT their advantages.
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George Geczy
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#6 Post by George Geczy » Dec 05 2005

Interesting post.

Unfortunately I myself have not had a chance to play online multiplayer lately, though we still do play our weekly dev games - interestingly, even though David also complains that the games always play out the same way, in our case it is often that everyone gangs up and pitches in to kick the strongest region, so showing early strength is very dangerous. Sometimes early alliances make the situation a bit more complex, though.

Your point about being able to "manipulate" the AI is interesting, since a lot of comments about AI diplomacy and interaction go both ways on this; ie, either "too easily manipulated" or else "doesn't respond enough to my trades/offers/interaction/threats", which is of course the opposite.

Chris did at one point start building a multiplayer "arena" map, meant to give each player similar situations; but as you say, most people would not be interested in playing such an "artificial" map. Though hopefully at some future date we will have a couple of maps of this type.

I myself don't mind playing a weaker region, though I do like it when I have a nice defendable location :-) (for when everyone gangs up on me).

-- George.

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ok well

#7 Post by Kennyb77 » Dec 05 2005

ok that game i played with u i was between u and red and i gave all my techs untill my computer crash and that wasnt my fault

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#8 Post by tkobo » Dec 05 2005

If i remember correctly,you played east germany ? Which is a region that actually starts in average or less position, map wise.IE no huge auto-safe borders.
Which is an oddity for a person so far by my experience with this game in multiplay.

And no i am not blaming you for leaving the game.I actually didnt even remember who played that region .

I was thinking ive only played 3 different people so far in multiplayer, but its really 4,becuase i forgot you :oops:

You actually have now remided me of another issue with multiplay.

When a player leaves,while the game is still running,without giving his land to another region,it seems to become inactive.
The AI i assume takes over, but it seems that its crippled even more than normal,becuase it doesnt change the settings the player has enacted to prevent the AI from taking actions while the player is running the region.

So you end up with an AI run region that plays even less effeciently than a normal AI region.
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Balthagor
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#9 Post by Balthagor » Dec 05 2005

tkobo wrote:...When a player leaves,while the game is still running,without giving his land to another region,it seems to become inactive...
This is a known issue and on our list to look at changing for future updates.
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#10 Post by bergsjaeger » Dec 06 2005

Too bad tkobo that u want to quit MP games. I was looking for to playing with u. And if u can remember i said if we played a MP game together I rather u be an ally. Well I still mean that (ur kill ratio still makes me wonder if I have a chance if I give u enough time). Course sooner or later we'll have to fight. But U need to keep playing MP games I do. even if they end the same but not always. I have had MP games were me and 2 other people fought together as allies. Another time me and another player planned a invasion of Ireland together. :lol: too bad we never got the plan into full swing. As for the other players u meantioned I got an idea who u are talking about. :lol: And if its the same one I have made them change plans before. predictable actions in MP cost ppl sometimes. Course with me the one thing I do is never DoW on anyone unless I know I can win.
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