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I think the AI has the ability to see and engage submarines to easily when they are moving. I think that the ratios of detection need tweaking somehow. At the moment if i send a submarien like a ssn-21 seawolf into enemy waters, i'd expect it to be able to sneak up to enemy units and get first shot in at least. This is what the crews are trained for and what the subs are designed for, but at the moment all i can do is get within the ships weapon range and they blow me up. the only ones i can get near are patrol craft with limited or no ASW weapons.

What are the opposing ships?

I had mentioned in the tread about aircraft stealth that all stealth has been adjusted somewhat for update 5, you'll want to try this again after the update is out to see if it is still a problem.

If it is, I'll need a savegame with specific details to look into this. There have been a few discussions on stealth but most of the time we've gotten the results we expected when doing controlled tests.

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Chris Latour
BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com

well this was against british broadsword class frigates and the french frigates/destroyers.also the triumph class attack subs. i know these are top class ships but it just seems too difficult to get any sub near a maor fleet.

Yes the stealth issue is a big problem, the only way to fix this inbalance is to heavily modify the Equipment file, unfortunaltly that will only work on scenarios.

I made an example how to do this in my Customised Realistic France map. which introduces much higher stealth effects

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not going forward eqeals to going backward

One change that will greatly help this in Supreme Ruler 2020 is that we are introducing two spotting types per unit so that we can separate sonar from surface radar. This is still something we should watch for in the beta stages. Currently we're using another thread for most of the stealth discussions and it is the one we'll be using when we can test in a beta version. If you'd like to read the blog about spotting, click the link below our banner and check the October blogs.

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Chris Latour
BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com

Great, to hear BG is finally listening to the fans and going fix the problem I'am sure this will solve the Awacs detecting submarine problem and submarine detecting stealth air-planes annomalies

However, what about the Ground radar detecting foot soldiers at 120 km ? Or what about surface ships capable of looking 300 km at all entrenched infantry inland? Totally riduculous. Therefore, I strongly suggest to include 1 additional value to make a total of 3 values, sonar, radar and surface. Surface will represent all caracteristics which allows a unit to spot ground forces (eyes, ears, Infrared, nightvision, heat vision, ground vibrations, etc, etc).

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not going forward eqeals to going backward

This idea has been discussed and rejected, it would require too much complexity to be added since we would need two fogs of war (one for air, one for land). While it would be more realistic, it would not greatly impact gameplay.

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Chris Latour
BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com

How can you so sure about that? have you tied it? Could you give a short explaination why it will mot affect gameplay?

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not going forward eqeals to going backward

The complexity is a much greater issue. Showing the player two fog of wars is not really possible and we'd have to spend CPU cycles calculating another set of spotting values. I don't remember everything we discussed about this, it was a while back and I'm working on other areas. I think the basic issue was that using one spot type for land and air would only make land units seen more often, not air, since air spotting is usually the longer range. Seeing more of what is going on simply allows the player to make decisions based on more information. Also this spotting is applied to all players and AI so it does not imbalance anything. This issue is not likely to be reopened.

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Chris Latour
BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com

That makes sense. A similar affect for subs can probably be acheived by modding the equipment files and increasing stealth.

You have to guard and protect CPU cycles with a fair amount of jealousy when you are running a transaction based engine.

I think I would have made the same call -- in this instance game wins over reality (or you're likely not to have either).

Regards,
Feltan