Engineers

In this thread you can discuss any thoughts you have about balance within the game. Does a particular unit need a specification changed? Is a stealth plane not stealthy enough? Do "Belli Bar" levels need to be changed? Let us know and discuss it all here.

Moderators: Balthagor, Legend, Moderators

BigStone
General
Posts: 1390
Joined: Dec 22 2004
Location: Holland

Post by BigStone »

Well i agree that the engineers role is more of a support one...

However you can ask yourself this: what unit
has a bigger change to stop a tank ?
Infantry or engineers.

I go for engineers..... :wink:
NO MORE NOISY FISH [unless they are green & furiously]
I HAVE STILL A FISH IN MY EAR
Draken
General
Posts: 1168
Joined: Jul 14 2004
Human: Yes
Location: Space Coast, FL

Post by Draken »

Sure, but only if they have the time to build anti-tank obstacles and mine fields....

Just ask yourself what unit has a bigger change to stop a tank ?

Infantry(equipped with M2 Bradleys, TOW, Javelin. etc) or engineers (equpped with bulldozers, mines warfare equipment and demolition charges).

Just look at their mission as define by US Army doctrine! The closest thing that it says about combat is "to perform REAR AREA security operations WHEN required"... And if you have enemy tanks in your rear area and engineers is all you have, well... Good luck
:lol:

Sure, engineers go to basic tranning, and therefore they could fight as infantry if require, but other than small arms, they do not have much else weapons-wise, just specialized construction and mine warfare equipment.

At the most, I would gave them light infantry soft and hard attack values in the game.
User avatar
bergsjaeger
General
Posts: 2240
Joined: Apr 22 2005
Location: Woods Bend, Alabama,USA

Post by bergsjaeger »

That's what engineers basicly are light infantry because other than the bulldozers and other equipment their no differnet than the light infantry. So they should be more like light infantry maybe a little better.
In war destroy everything even the livestock.
Draken
General
Posts: 1168
Joined: Jul 14 2004
Human: Yes
Location: Space Coast, FL

Post by Draken »

Sorry, but what makes engineers special is not the combat ability but their construction, demoliton, bridging and amphibious abilities... I do not think they should be better that light infantry... They already are in a way.

Remember, what I would like to see is the AI using more variaty of units and less engineers in a combat role.
User avatar
bergsjaeger
General
Posts: 2240
Joined: Apr 22 2005
Location: Woods Bend, Alabama,USA

Post by bergsjaeger »

:lol: I did say a little better because they can prepare for combat a little better than light infantry could. I didn't mean a major differnece maybe a point or 2 above what the light infantry has on its stats.
In war destroy everything even the livestock.
Draken
General
Posts: 1168
Joined: Jul 14 2004
Human: Yes
Location: Space Coast, FL

Post by Draken »

Looks like Bergs and I have to agree to dissagree on this one :D

So, any more takers?

Goats?
User avatar
tkobo
Supreme Ruler
Posts: 12397
Joined: Jun 04 2002
Location: In a vast zionist plot ...RIGHT BEHIND YOU ! Oh Noes !

Post by tkobo »

Are there any regions that dont start out with the tech required to build "light infrantry" ?

The reason i ask, is because their are regions in the game that dont start out with the tech required to build "engineers"
This post approved by Tkobo:Official Rabble Rouser of the United Yahoos
Chuckle TM
User avatar
bergsjaeger
General
Posts: 2240
Joined: Apr 22 2005
Location: Woods Bend, Alabama,USA

Post by bergsjaeger »

I think there's some that don't start with LI's I'm not sure. Can't remember been awhile but I thought I seen some regions without light infantry.
In war destroy everything even the livestock.
User avatar
Balthagor
Supreme Ruler
Posts: 22083
Joined: Jun 04 2002
Human: Yes
Location: BattleGoat Studios

Post by Balthagor »

On our side we don't have much comment yet, I just finished a bunch of equipment file work so it will be a while before any changes are made no matter what is decided for this topic. I've let the conversation continue because then I know where to come back and read when I do get back to it. :)

I'm still curious if anyone knows why engineers were so strong in People's General of if there are any other games that made have engineering type units and how they are balanced there.
Chris Latour
BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com
Draken
General
Posts: 1168
Joined: Jul 14 2004
Human: Yes
Location: Space Coast, FL

Post by Draken »

Balthagor wrote:I'm still curious if anyone knows why engineers were so strong in People's General of if there are any other games that made have engineering type units and how they are balanced there.
Never played it, but I think it because of the "common sense", you know, engineers carry a lot of powerful explosives so, they must be lethal! Nevermind if they have to run to attach the explosives to tanks or apc going at 30mph...

Sarcasm aside, that might be the case on WW II , so perhaps, there the myth was born...

:D
User avatar
bergsjaeger
General
Posts: 2240
Joined: Apr 22 2005
Location: Woods Bend, Alabama,USA

Post by bergsjaeger »

Well I do remember 2 games that had engineers as a unit. both had anti-tank weapons of sorts. One had mines and satch charges the other I think had bazookas.
In war destroy everything even the livestock.
margab
Captain
Posts: 110
Joined: May 08 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO (nationality--Turkey)

Post by margab »

Balthagor wrote:On our side we don't have much comment yet, I just finished a bunch of equipment file work so it will be a while before any changes are made no matter what is decided for this topic. I've let the conversation continue because then I know where to come back and read when I do get back to it. :)

I'm still curious if anyone knows why engineers were so strong in People's General of if there are any other games that made have engineering type units and how they are balanced there.
I was just looking at the unit table for the PG and yes it's interesting to see that engineers were so strong in that game too (hard attack value of 18, better than all other inf.). But I don't know why they did that, but I imo they should be support units only (may be even carrying supplies) instead of having high attack values. When it comes to their defences, i understand that they can have a significant close defence (they can set those up better than other inf units). So my main concern is the scaling back of the hard attack value and make the AI reduce building them (as others have mentioned, the AI builds too many engineers and uses them for fighting purposes).

Note: For people interested in People's General Unit table, below is a link (go to the bottom of the page).

http://www.wargamer.com/articles/peg_st ... _page2.asp
"Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes?"-Juvenal
dust off
General
Posts: 1182
Joined: Sep 23 2003
Location: UK

Post by dust off »

I'm still curious if anyone knows why engineers were so strong in People's General of if there are any other games that made have engineering type units and how they are balanced there.
I wouldn't assume People's General was so thoroughly researched. I'm aware of several actions where engineers performed well during WWII, but they should be put in the context of the huge amount of other skirmishes and battles where their role was either insignificant, or support in clearing obstacles. I know the US engineer squads and platoons had less men per squad and less support weapons than infantry squads.

The so called common sense view is often completely opposite to the truth of things.
Draken
General
Posts: 1168
Joined: Jul 14 2004
Human: Yes
Location: Space Coast, FL

Post by Draken »

The so called common sense view is often completely opposite to the truth of things.
Just in case, I was being sarcastic ... :-) :wink: Or... Perhaps you are supporting my comment ... Geez!!! Don't you love internet! :lol:

I know the US engineer squads and platoons had less men per squad and less support weapons than infantry squads.
Also, I couldn't find any specific AT weapon in their TO&E
User avatar
Balthagor
Supreme Ruler
Posts: 22083
Joined: Jun 04 2002
Human: Yes
Location: BattleGoat Studios

Post by Balthagor »

dust off wrote:I wouldn't assume People's General was so thoroughly researched.
Most of the equipment files you find for the game these days have been heavily modified by their community so I would expect they are at least as well researched as our list is. But you are correct, they could be wrong on the engineer strength as well.

If we did reduce thier values, their cost/build time would need to be reviewed. It was set according to their current combat values...
Chris Latour
BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com
Post Reply

Return to “Balance”