Balance in enemy armament

In this thread you can discuss any thoughts you have about balance within the game. Does a particular unit need a specification changed? Is a stealth plane not stealthy enough? Do "Belli Bar" levels need to be changed? Let us know and discuss it all here.

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felinis
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Balance in enemy armament

#1 Post by felinis » Feb 28 2006

In the North American scenerio, I finally got around to invading the Caribean (Cuba). I discovered that all of the islands are just bristling with weapons - almost each hex has eight units, and a huge fleet menacing Flordia.

How is it possible for a small island economy to manufacture and support such a staggering array of weaponry? Every day I get e-mail about shortages in the Caribean, yet their weapons and ships work just fine - no supply shortages that bring the units to a halt.

When my country has a petrol shortage, my units roll to a stop and my aircraft don't fly. If I have too many weapons deployed, I run out of money in my treasury.

Also, when Canada attacked me, nothing short of extinction would stop them. I destroyed 95 percent of their factories, mines, etc., but again, their units never suffered a crippling fuel shortage or any type of supply or repair problem that I could detect.

In my opinion, this is a very un-balanced situation that should be corrected.

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Balthagor
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Re: Balance in enemy armament

#2 Post by Balthagor » Feb 28 2006

We've been over this before, but it's worth mentioning again - the AI does not cheat. If their tanks are moving, they have gas. If their tanks are shooting they have military goods. Doesn't matter if they have no food, water or consumer goods, those would not affect combat.
felinis wrote:...the islands are just bristling with weapons...How is it possible...
They likely got the units from the World Market. There has been debates elsewhere on how many units the WM does/should give, it is still being reviewed. For now, you can expect the WM to often arm your enemies.
felinis wrote:...Every day I get e-mail about shortages in the Caribean, yet their weapons and ships work just fine - no supply shortages that bring the units to a halt.
What are they short on? If it is not petroleum or miltiary goods, they will be able to continue fighting.
felinis wrote:...Also, when Canada attacked me, nothing short of extinction would stop them. I destroyed 95 percent of their factories, mines, etc., but again, their units never suffered a crippling fuel shortage or any type of supply or repair problem that I could detect...
Again, you'd need to check if they have petroleum/military goods supply still. If they are moving, they must still have some petroleum in stock or in production. The AI regions are subject to the same rules as the players.
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felinis
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WM arming enemies

#3 Post by felinis » Feb 28 2006

I don't remember the WM every giving me any free weapons - they are offered at about a 20% markup - that means that this impoverished Island chain paid a premium for each WM unit.

The Caribean is a Communist nation - if they got their weapons on the world market, then why is it all Soviet equipment? Why no Shetland Recon units or Mirage jet fighters? They must have manufactured them.

I DECIMATED Canadia's infrastructure - that is the way to win a modern war. It DID NOT EFFECT THEM IN THE LEAST. They continued fighting until they reached 5% Military Confidence. By that time I had taken their Capital, all of mainland Canada and Alaska. There was just one hold-out on that small island in NE Canada - NewFinland or Nova Scosha, and a HUGE Canadian fleet docked nearby.

How does a small hold-out island support a huge fleet and a mechanized, very scrappy army? Shouldn't supply and economics collapse long before Military Confidence wains?

Another thing - during a war - the WM STOPS GIVING AWAY GOODIES.
They don't resume giving me even their +20% "Deals" on weapons until at least a month after I win a conflict. I stop hearing ANYTHING from them until hostilies have ended.

I think that when you say that "the AI does not cheat", you are either misinformed or just plain wrong. Most strat games vary the amount of automatic advantage an opponent AI has according to the level of difficulty at which you play. I am playing at 'Normal' level, and the AI is CLEARLY giving GREAT advantage to the opposition.

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Re: WM arming enemies

#4 Post by red » Feb 28 2006

felinis wrote:I don't remember the WM every giving me any free weapons - they are offered at about a 20% markup - that means that this impoverished Island chain paid a premium for each WM unit.
Your price has no relation to any other region's. Price is dependent on World Market ratings, higher bringing better deals of course. World Market rating is in turn influenced, among other things, by how small and impoverished a region is...
felinis wrote:The Caribean is a Communist nation - if they got their weapons on the world market, then why is it all Soviet equipment? Why no Shetland Recon units or Mirage jet fighters? They must have manufactured them.
Government type is irrelevant to arms purchases. They are only offered equipment from regions of the world which were their historical trade partners or influences--so in the case of Cuba, Soviet equipment.
felinis wrote:I think that when you say that "the AI does not cheat", you are either misinformed or just plain wrong. Most strat games vary the amount of automatic advantage an opponent AI has according to the level of difficulty at which you play. I am playing at 'Normal' level, and the AI is CLEARLY giving GREAT advantage to the opposition.
Best to not tell one of the developers that they're 'misinformed' about a portion of their game invisible to you. :o For what it's worth, George, their programmer, has always said very clearly that the AI doesn't cheat.

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Re: WM arming enemies

#5 Post by Balthagor » Feb 28 2006

felinis wrote:I don't remember the WM every giving me any free weapons - they are offered at about a 20% markup - that means that this impoverished Island chain paid a premium for each WM unit.
The WM relations for every region are different therefore the prices are different. If they have high WM approval and subsidy they probably got them for free
felinis wrote:The Caribean is a Communist nation - if they got their weapons on the world market, then why is it all Soviet equipment? Why no Shetland Recon units or Mirage jet fighters? They must have manufactured them.
Considering they don't start with any of those designs it is unlikely they built them. The region code that they import from is also specified for each region. The US is offered French and South African equipment (IIRC) and Carribean are offered Russian and East European stuff.
felinis wrote:I DECIMATED Canadia's infrastructure...How does a small hold-out island support a huge fleet and a mechanized, very scrappy army? Shouldn't supply and economics collapse long before Military Confidence wains?
If you have a savegame I could tell you exactly where they are making their money. Should they have surrendered earlier? I don't know, it would be hard to tell...
felinis wrote:Another thing - during a war - the WM STOPS GIVING AWAY GOODIES...
... to you. Watch the WM news, I'm sure you'll see lots of news reports of the WM offering units to those regions.
felinis wrote:I think that when you say that "the AI does not cheat", you are either misinformed or just plain wrong...
Well, as one of the development team I'm confident I'm not missinformed. As for being wrong, I'd challenge you to prove it. I've been playing the game for 6 years now (well, only 4 with units actually able to move ;) ) and can assure you, the AI does not cheat. It is subject to the exact same calculations as the player.

You should, for the sake of arguement, try that scenario from the Carribean for a bit and see how much the WM offers you...

NOTE: I'm glad that you mentioned the difficulty level at normal, you are correct that at higher difficulty levels the player is "less liked" by the AI and WM and the reverse at lower difficulties.
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felinis
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AI cheating

#6 Post by felinis » Feb 28 2006

OK - I surrender (and you did not even touch my infrastructure).

I take it all back. I BELIEVE YOU.

This is not the first time that I have gotten bitch slapped for questioning authority.

Again - you guys are doing a great job. That part about using cultural context for supplying weapons just blew me away. A very impressive level of sophistication.

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#7 Post by Balthagor » Feb 28 2006

:)

Do you have the savegame? I honestly don't mind taking a look...

Not trying to slap you down, I'm just here to try and keep the answers straight.

Perhaps you want to join Khorne's WM threadin diplomacy :D
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#8 Post by felinis » Feb 28 2006

Sorry - I do get worked up sometimes - I assume that that was what you were hinting about with the reference to diplomacy.

Ironic, since I said something simular to a another guy when I was the Captain of a Star Trek fan club.

Yes, I am pretty sure that I have a save-game of my Canadian conflict. I will try to locate the one just before the final fall of Canada. Where should I send it to?

A tragic thing happened in that final battle - Canada had a huge fleet anchored off NE Canada. When my amphibous landing force landed in NewFinland (or whatever that island is called) and started to "clean house", the Canadian ships began to surrender. Unfortunately for them and for me, they were surrounded by loyalists who immediately turned on them and blew them out of the water. An ugly scene...

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#9 Post by Balthagor » Mar 01 2006

You can send the file to chris@battlegoat.com

As for the diplomacy thread, it wasn't that you were worked up, it's that thread is devoted to not liking how the WM gives out so much money and so many units to other regions. Thought you might like to weigh in on that converstaion :)
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#10 Post by felinis » Mar 01 2006

Thanks for the tip - I sent the file.

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#11 Post by felinis » Mar 01 2006

Here is another one or you - I send a fleet of about 175 FFG ships, each armed with about 10 missiles, to attack the Caribbian island of Jamaca. The global target selection is for area effect, land units and aircraft only.
The missile mix reflects this - i.e. no ship or submarine missiles, no infrastructure missiles.

I sent them in close - real close, before arming their missiles.

So- after clicking on about 350 check boxes to "Launch Authorize" the fleet's missiles, I shoot maybe a thousand missiles at a medium sized island - Jamaca, and score about (maybe) thirty kills- all land units.

What is going on here? There is NO AA on the whole island - only Soviet infantry, conventional artillery (no radar sights), recon units, tanks, morter units and old non-motorized anti-tank guns.

Who in this socialist paradise is targeting and shooting down my missiles?
You can see massive numbers of them blow up short of their target.

Is it the WM again?

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#12 Post by szabfer » Mar 02 2006

Well... If I remember well, the infantry units have AA capability. Just check their stats.... while maybe it is unrealisitic that an infantry regiment can shoot down missile units, the game engine maybe works as specified. There is AA defense of the units so they can shoot down the incoming missiles.

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#13 Post by Balthagor » Mar 02 2006

Also, any airforce they still have will engage the missiles. More likely what is happening is the ships are using the missiles poorly (sending 100 to attack a single target that the first 5 hits kill). The AI's use of missiles is nowhere near what we would like it to be, particularly area of effect missiles. There is an issue there, but it's not balance, it goes much deeper than that...
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