stealth disadvantages for moving submarines

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Should the disadvantages of movement on submarines be reduced

Yes, they should lower these effects to make submarines harder to detect when they move
13
76%
No, I like beeing able to detect submarines at unrealitic long ranges.
4
24%
 
Total votes: 17
Draken
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Post by Draken »

Balthagor wrote:Well, no one has tried to sneak a sub up to a cruiser in about 60 ....
Not exactly accurate... Don't forget about the sinking of the ARA General Belgrano by the HMS Conqueror in 1982 during the Falkands/Malvinas War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano

But, this is not a very good example... Old cruiser vs modern sub...

:wink:
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Post by Balthagor »

I had forgotten about that, thanks.

Actually, I'll read through the article and see if I can use it as a framework for a controlled test.
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Post by Sebastiaan »

What about all those naval war games the NAVO. I believe durring those games, the submarines proved their ability to remain hidden in deep waters.

What about the flolowing idea, give deep waters a low visibility bonus, this would allow submarines in those waters to ramain hidden much better.

I performed a little test to look if this works, at it turns it does. Subs suddenly become twise as hard to spot in deep oceaan water as submarines in shallow water (near the cost) which quite realistic
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Post by Balthagor »

Sebastiaan wrote:What about all those naval war games the NAVO. I believe durring those games, the submarines proved their ability to remain hidden in deep waters.
If you have some data on their results, please send them over and we will try and match their results. Problem is, most of the results are classified :-?
Sebastiaan wrote:What about the flolowing idea, give deep waters a low visibility bonus, this would allow submarines in those waters to ramain hidden much better.
I'll look at those values as part of trying to figure out when they should and should not be spotted, but I think they are balanced okay.
Sebastiaan wrote:I performed a little test to look if this works, at it turns it does. Subs suddenly become twise as hard to spot in deep oceaan water as submarines in shallow water (near the cost) which quite realistic
And this was done on purpose. Sailing a submarine up a deep river is possible but it moves slower and can be seen fairly easily, both in the game and IRL.
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Post by bergsjaeger »

:lol: Am I the only one voted No. Course I don't like the sentence after No but oh well. I like the subs the way they are. If they were even more stealthy I be losing alot of ships to them.
In war destroy everything even the livestock.
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Post by Sebastiaan »

bergsjaeger wrote::lol: Am I the only one voted No. Course I don't like the sentence after No but oh well. I like the subs the way they are. If they were even more stealthy I be losing alot of ships to them.
Well, that what they were made for..
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bergsjaeger
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Post by bergsjaeger »

Well here's something. Its a link that shows how tough a US sub is.

http://www.fas.org/main/content.jsp?for ... tentId=396
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Post by Sebastiaan »

Its a wonder they survived in the first place. Wonder what happnened the the career of its captain
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Post by haenkie »

[quote="Balthagor"]Well, no one has tried to sneak a sub up to a cruiser in about 60 years so you're trusting the ppl making the sub to be accurate in their descriptions of stealthy they are in real life. I don't really believe that a US sub could sneak up on a US ship very well but that is a technology face off that you never see.
[quote]


There is only one flaw in your htinking, it happened all the time. The cold war isnt over that long is it...

Subs are the stealthiest things still around. It is impossible to detect a hole in the water stil...


I know they will be hard to spot, but somehow now they are to easy spotted. And i do think a cruiser cant pick up a sub in silent mode/when it is laying on the sands.
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Post by Balthagor »

Well, Sebastiaan sent me his savegame and I did some testing;

S-601 Rubis sub from Marseille is spotted by Alvaro De Bazan frigate at <126 km if moving, 56 km if not moving.

Anyone got proof this is wrong?

To help, details for the Alvaro De Bazan;
radars 1 Lockheed Martin AEGIS (SPY-1D) multi-function
phased array
1 AN/SPS-67(V)4 surface search
fire control 1 AESN RAN-30L/X Meroka fire control
2 Raytheon AN/SPG-62 fire control
2 Mk 99 target illumination
1 Faba DORNA K-band radar/optronic gunfire control
1 Thales SIRUS infrared search and track system
sonars 1 ENOSA-Raytheon DE-1160LF (I) hull-mounted
medium-frequency
The Rubis is an SSN
Propulsion:
main 1 CAS-48 pressurized water reactor;
2 3,950 kW turboalternator sets,
1 electric motor; 9,500 total shp;
1 shaft
auxiliary 1 electric motor driven by batteries powered
by 1 SEMT-PIELSTICK-type 8 PA3 V185 diesel
generator set
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Post by Sebastiaan »

trying to list any proof I can find


here are some theoratic principle explaned or active/passive sonar:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/fun/part08.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/fun/part09.htm
http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/sonar.html

these are document about Anti sub warfare in general:
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_491.shtml


here are some intresting qoates I found:
MAD is short for “Magnetic Anomaly Detector”. Usually deployed as a probe, MAD is towed either behind a helicopter, or aircraft, and based on the fact that any submarine is basically a large mass of steel and other metallic alloys, concentrated in large amounts in an environment otherwise free of such materials. Consequently, the submarines cause fine deviations in the Earth’s magnetic field. These deviations can be detected – and even tracked with the help of a MAD. Although this detection method is meanwhile increasingly problematic – to no small degree also because of an increasing number of shipwrecks on the bottom of most seas (since shipwrecks can cause a similar deviation and the Earth’s magnetic field) – meanwhile very precise maps of such deviations are available, and they can be taken into account. The largest disadvantage of the MAD remains therefore its limited range: the aircraft or helicopter deploying its MAD-sensor has to fly very low and slow over the area where the submarine is suspected, in order to use it effectively.
The differences in water temperature at different depths form the so-called “thermal layers” (or “thermocyclines”), the borders of which also bounce sound beams. In specific parts of some seas and oceans, these differences are so massive, that they enable even large submarines to hide in one thermal layer, or – better said: bellow them – then the thermocyclines are so massive they bounce sounds from any kind of active sonars, or completely block the sounds from reaching the passive sonar.
On the contrary, in the oceans there is a certain layer that is perfectly “transporting” sound waves. This is the so-called “deep sea sound channel” (DSSC). The layer on top of this layer has a too high temperature and bounces back the waves sent within the DSSC. The layer below, has a too high pressure and hence bounces the waves back too. By this way, a wave sent within the DSSC will be bounced back by these layers from one another, this will form a sinusoidal movement of the sound wave and transport it for very long periods over several thousands of miles. This layer is mostly located at depths between 800 and 2.000 meters, but is frequently depending on temperature and pressure. As an example what a DSSC can do: in WWII, some bombers and airplanes used to carry a depth charge that was set to explode within the DSSC and in the USA and UK there were several stations with hydrophones inside this layer. By taking bearings from an explosion of such a depth charge, the position of the crashed aircraft could be determined and a rescue team could be sent out….Today, surface ASW platforms equipped with VDS can lower these into this layer enabling them to detect submarines over immense ranges. Of course, any decent submarine-skipper knows this as well, and will attempt to avoid operating within the DSSC.
The Sound wave is determined by the “gain” strength of the emission and the frequency - which is dependent on the wavelength For frequency a simple rule of thumb can be used: the higher the frequency the less of it will protrude the water (meaning the shorter range), but in turn this is making the frequency easier to concentrate - or “aim the beam” (meaning more accurate position fix). The situation is directly opposite when it comes to low frequencies. All such details and factors fit into the submarine hunting process and procedures: the submarine is most likely to be detected at a long range by low frequency devices, which will provide a blurry – i.e. approximate – position. Once the hunters come closer higher frequencies will be used to track the submarine down and for attack.
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Post by Balthagor »

that is a lot of data to go through :-? I won't get through it any time soon. Does it actually list any ranges anywhere?
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Post by Sebastiaan »

Balthagor wrote:that is a lot of data to go through :-? I won't get through it any time soon. Does it actually list any ranges anywhere?
I'm afraid not. There is simply no easy answer. Detecting ranges appear to be realy dependant on many conditions
In general, sound is a very uncertain medium, because it has to travel through different other mediums and weather – i.e. water – conditions. Essentially, the detection of underwater sounds depends on four main factors: salinity (amount of salt in water, which varying from one sea to the other), pollution, temperature and pressure (which increases with the depth). These four factors can bend sound waves, bounce them back or even slow them down.
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Post by Balthagor »

Well I think that the ranges from which the sub are being spotted are quite reasonable, considering that is a fairly advanced ship and an older submarine.
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Post by Sebastiaan »

Balthagor wrote:Well I think that the ranges from which the sub are being spotted are quite reasonable, considering that is a fairly advanced ship and an older submarine.
Exactly on what basis do you come to that conclusion? My reason why I think the detection is wrong is because I compare it with many Modern Submarine simulation I played. In one of those games I played as the USS Los angelous, which has a similar stealth rating to the above mentioned submarine. Is was often able to keep hidden from modern ASW vessels unit I fired my torpedos at them.
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