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PostPosted: Aug 17 2005 
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Location: Ancaster, Ontario - BattleGoat Studios
I would like to start a thread to discuss relations in the game. I am not looking for how regions "should" start in a scenario but how actions in the game should affect relations overtime. We already have many things affect other things in the game so we may just need to increase or decrease an effect. Other items may be great ideas that we can easily add to the game to enhance how relationships change based on actions within the game.

The relations I am talking about are:
Causus Belli (Justification for War)
Civilian Relations (How much another region's people like you and how much your people like the other region)
Diplomatic Relations (How good relations are between two regions)
Treaty Integrity (How good you are at keeping your treaties)
World Market Ratings (How the world market views your region)

What we are looking for is situations and their effects on the relations between regions.

For example - my ally is attacked, and in response I declare war on the other region to help my ally... should my people like my ally more? Should the people in the allied region like my region more? If so, how much? Should diplomatic relations be improved also because yor are aiding an ally... should your treaty integrity increase because you are helping an ally? At the same time how will your "belli bar" affect things?

What are some other situations and what affects should they have?
Here is a quick list to get you started?

    Trading technology
    Breaking treaties
    Boycotting a region
    Stationing troops in another region
    Stationing troops near a border
    Trading of goods
    Things that affect unification votes
    Things that affect regional votes and DAR



Not all suggestions will be included but all will be read and considered. Who knows maybe you'll see your name in the next readme... :wink:


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PostPosted: Aug 17 2005 
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Location: Holland
Thanks for opening this topic Legend....

But first i want something to clarify.... :-?

WTF is the differnce between CAUSUS BELLI and CIVILIAN RATINGS... ???

It seems to me that those 2 issues are very close related (i had never a high CB with a low CR and vv... :-? ) .... so you might consider to drop one of these....

Cheers


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PostPosted: Aug 17 2005 
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Joined: Dec 22 2004
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Location: Holland
RESOURCES:

* Rich oilfields/water (in case of a dry scenario) near borders
If your gonna exploit them the neighbours becomes irritated.
* Hydrodams near borders...

etc etc.

Cheers


Last edited by BigStone on Aug 17 2005, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug 17 2005 
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Joined: Dec 22 2004
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Location: Holland
ENVIRONMENT:

* Placing polluting (or dangerous) industry near borders.

Cheers


Last edited by BigStone on Aug 17 2005, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug 17 2005 
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Joined: Dec 22 2004
Posts: 1444
Location: Holland
TRANSPORT:

* Connecting (rail) roads with the neighbours... (new treaty ?+ )


Cheers


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug 18 2005 
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Joined: Dec 29 2004
Posts: 900
Location: Sheffield, Yorkshire, England...
I think Declaring War on a Allies invader should improve Civilian Relationship alot really...

If your not asking for anything in return in order to declare war on their Enemy... they should love you for it (Esspecially if you have a war winning force) because if you think about it (And most of the Free Iraqi people haven't Relised it yet !) You country is sending its Husbands, Fathers, Brothers and Uncles (And in some cases Grandfathers) to fight for them... Yes they may get some land from it... Maybe they will get most from it but if your ally is bound to lose in a war without your help then they should see it as a token of friendship and that friendship should be strenghtened... (even if you are planning to invade them later anyway :D)

Non-Agression Pacts...

If you have a Non-Agression Pact with someone and you say invade a country that doesn't share a border with them then there should be no Beli-Bar increase...

But if you invade a country that shares a border with them... Maybe an Increase of 35-70% depending on the invading countries beli-bar towards the invaded before the invasion (If you can understand that :D)

Entrenchments in Allied lands (Dum Dum Dum DERRRR)

Maybe their could be a Diplomatic agreement where you can build Entrechments in a Allies country (Only entrenchments) this way lending your military might to protect a country but no so much wanting to advance on the attacker could be realised with a better entrenchment valve than '2'....

This could also be a Way you could make DMZs (i know these have been talked about ages ago) Where a country won't beable to take any land from the protected without attacking your troops (This could be realised for Sea as well but I know what you could do to stop Planes going past without shooting at them?)

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Just because the Japanese happened to build one near multiple fault lines doesn't make them any more dangerous than they were before the Earthquake.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug 18 2005 
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Joined: Dec 22 2004
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Location: Holland
CptBritish wrote:
I think Declaring War on a Allies invader should improve Civilian Relationship alot really...




Yep.. and if you have a mutual defense treaty and you do nothing
your ratings should drop fast

Cheers


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug 18 2005 
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Joined: Dec 22 2004
Posts: 1444
Location: Holland
Trading Tech's (or give away for free):

There should be 3 difference:

* Boost Civilian rating: environmental techs/medical techs etc
* Boost Diplo rating: production techs/infratechs etc
* Lower CB: weapontechs etc

Cheers


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Oct 21 2005 
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Finally doing some work on this area, figure I should start by going over some replies;

BigStone wrote:
…(what) is the differnce between CAUSUS BELLI and CIVILIAN RATINGS... had never a high CB with a low CR and vv...


They are actually quite different and I have seen belli ~ 80% with Civ of ~ 40% (concerned). I think the problem is that things that affect one usually affect both so they seem to consistnenly move in the same direction. This is some of what we are looking to solve.

Some quick definitions;

Civilian rating (aka civrelate) – This represents the Civilian opinion of your population regarding the other region or vise versa, both their ppl and their leadership. This can also be seen as reputation, since like a reputation it is hard to build up but easy to ruin.

Diplomatic rating (aka diprelate) – This represents the level of cooperation and desire to work together between the selected regions. This is also a measure of trust.

Causus Belli. (aka Belli) – This is an indicator of how much justification for open hostilities exist. While the slider represents 100%, it is possible to be above 100% in the calculations if many factors are causing the justification. A sure way to increase someone’s belli towards you is to declare war on their ally or really anyone for whom they have a high civrelate. Belli does decrease over time (as of ver 4.3.1) so long as you do nothing to keep it high. Difficulty level of the game has a big affect on Belli changes.

BigStone wrote:
…(* Rich oilfields/water (in case of a dry scenario) near borders...

You had a couple examples like these but you didn’t indicate what variables they should impact. I’m also unsure if some of these should, but we can discuss that further on…

CptBritish wrote:
… I think Declaring War on a Allies invader should improve Civilian Relationship alot …

We agree on this. Region A declares war on B who has attacked C. I think Civrelate C->A goes up. I think Diprelate C -> A goes up but not quite as much. I also think that if we expand the game to a varying loyalty model this action would increase loyalty in A. Also, MAR in C could take a slight increase.

What should happen if instead A signs non-aggression with B? or Alliance? Should the affect be mitigated over time? (Alliance the day after hostilities break out versus months later)

CptBritish wrote:
… If you have a Non-Aggression Pact with someone and you say invade a country that doesn't share a border with them then there should be no Beli-Bar increase... …

Hmm, this one is comples. A and B have non- aggression. A attacks C. C and B do not touch. I think that what we have now is still reasonable. The affect on Belli/Civ/Dip values B -> A is related to civrelate and diprelate B->C. If B likes C, they don’t like A attacking C. If B hates C, they do like A attacking C. It also currently looks at what agreements B-C have signed.

CptBritish wrote:
… Entrenchments in Allied lands …

This one is tricky. If I place AA units entrenched at all my allies airstrips this should be appreciated. If I station crack troops and tanks surrounding his capital while the conflict is miles away, it might look a little suspicious :)

I’m looking at what in this can reasonable be implemented.

CptBritish wrote:
… Maybe their could be a Diplomatic agreement where you can build Entrechments …

If you still want that idea, be sure to repeat it in Wishlist forum.

BigStone wrote:
…and if you have a mutual defense treaty and you do nothing
your ratings should drop fast…

I think we all agree that if A and B have mutual defense and C attacks B, then B expects A to declare war on C. However, if C had 100% Belli against B and A had little Belli towards C before the DoW, then A’s Belli towards C might still be too low to avoid major WM penalties if they declare on C. Particularly that there was no way for C to know that A and B had mutual defense. B could have been declaring war on everyone around them. This one will require some more thought…

BigStone wrote:
…Trading Tech's (or give away for free):

There should be 3 difference:

* Boost Civilian rating: environmental techs/medical techs etc
* Boost Diplo rating: production techs/infratechs etc
* Lower CB: weapontechs etc…

I’m not sure these affects are necessary since the techs themselves already give bonuses according to public/WM opinion of the tech. It feels like a double bonus. What I have been thinking about is that any successful technology trade A->B should increase Diprelate

Anyway, I’m working on the spreadsheet to track what things should affect what other elements of the game, so if anyone else has ideas, now’s a good time to speak up ;)

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BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com


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 Post subject: Clarifications
PostPosted: Oct 21 2005 
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Joined: Aug 10 2005
Posts: 576
Location: Venice - the Doge's palace on the Pacific.
I think it would be easier to provide input on this thread if I had a better understanding of what specific things currently influence civrelate, belli and diprelate. I find that I am generally able [in both patch 2 and 3] to influence diprelate and belli by explicit actions - negotiation, threat, posture, and very much by trde volume and policy], but I am frustrated by the ethereal nature of civrelate.

For instance, I have frequently been able to obtain a high mutual diplrelate, so that my partner will willingly trade techs, but the civrelate is low or falling, and negotiating any level of treaty is difficult. This is frequently the case for non-adjacent regions.

Adjacency appears to be a highly significant factor in all diplo - so much that I mentally categorize all regions as adjacent or non-adjacent more so than I categorize them as friendly or hostile. It seems to set a baseline on potential. I first started along this line of thinking when I noticed that remote regions with whom I had no dealings would assume extreme levels of dip-and civrelate. Obscure. Phenomena without any apparent stimulus. Go figure. So maybe you could add some tangibles to this thread?

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 Post subject: Re: Clarifications
PostPosted: Oct 21 2005 
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Il Duce wrote:
I think it would be easier to provide input on this thread if I had a better understanding of what specific things currently influence civrelate, belli and diprelate.


The things that affect civrelate are few and extremely slow acting so any suggestions are welcome for expanding it. George has what you're looking for buried in the code but I don't have access to that. Make the suggestions, even stuff that is already in is getting on my spreadsheet so it gets reviewed.

As I see it the best question is, what do you think should make civrelate increase (and to really challenge ppl, think of it in terms of what could the US do to make the Iraqis symapthetic to the insurgents like the Americans more. There's a tough question! :o )

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BattleGoat Studios
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PostPosted: Oct 22 2005 
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Not sure if this has any effect in the game but wouldn't giving free units to region A help ur civrelate and diprelate alot especially if region A is at war with region B because B started the war and wouldn't it make the region B a whole lot less friendly toward u even making them want war with u if u keep it up? :lol: I like me giving Poland 10 light infantry which is helping them with their war with everyone else. Course I have given over 30 battalions to Poland already. :lol: Poland's between me and everyone else anyways so I wouldn't gain anything by going to war with the rest and the bad part is I have an alliance with everyone but i'm giving units to Poland to destroy my own allies :D.

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In war destroy everything even the livestock.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Oct 22 2005 
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Joined: Dec 29 2004
Posts: 900
Location: Sheffield, Yorkshire, England...
Balthagor wrote:
This one is tricky. If I place AA units entrenched at all my allies airstrips this should be appreciated. If I station crack troops and tanks surrounding his capital while the conflict is miles away, it might look a little suspicious :)

I’m looking at what in this can reasonable be implemented.


Maybe have it so in the incurrance of war between the too countries the one with the entrenchments in the others country, maybe said entrenchments dissapear...

As to balance slightly people just building up units in another country entrenching them and then declaring war...

_________________
Supporting Nuclear Power in the UK.

Just because the Japanese happened to build one near multiple fault lines doesn't make them any more dangerous than they were before the Earthquake.


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 Post subject: slant comment
PostPosted: Oct 22 2005 
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Brigadier Gen.

Joined: Aug 10 2005
Posts: 576
Location: Venice - the Doge's palace on the Pacific.
Re Beergsjaeger's last comment, I think it is also necessary to address the issues of giving units [not missiles or tech] to NON-adjacent regions - that is, they can never be delivered, remember? It's a nit, but it emphasiszes the peculiarities of adjacent versus non-adjacent regions.

More comments directly related to diplo as I compose them over the next few days....

_________________
Colorless green ideas sleep furiously [but otherwise, they do not worry and are happy].


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 Post subject: Re: Clarifications
PostPosted: Oct 22 2005 
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Joined: Dec 22 2004
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Location: Holland
Balthagor wrote:
As I see it the best question is, what do you think should make civrelate increase (and to really challenge ppl, think of it in terms of what could the US do to make the Iraqis symapthetic to the insurgents like the Americans more. There's a tough question! :o )


Maybe the compound of your cabinet should have a bigger impact on
the ratings....
For example if you place a strong (conservative) military guy with
a high m.iq on the strategic/defense departments it will drop your rating with other regions..

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I HAVE STILL A FISH IN MY EAR


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