Relations - Only build cap related

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haenkie
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Relations - Only build cap related

Post by haenkie »

This is my thought, and i want to open sort of a discussion here. because i am interested in what other people think. And if i am wrong have a clue how the relation system really works in the game.

But every game i started (4) and advanced to higher maps, my relations always seem to boil down to this.
When my buildcap is higher then one of the AIs in the game, then my WM relations suffer and my causus belli with my neighbours increases.

Up to the point that people which were two countries apart from mine had a full causus belli with me, although i never had troops near its border and didnt do generally a thing with them. But when my buildcap was lower then the highest one of the AI's then my belli didnt increase.

I remember a post from one of the dev's explaining it was depended on 'many small factors'. The only factor i can see and influence is my buildcap. When my WM standings were low, i lowered my buildcap and saw it increase.

Two considerations in this are:
1. I have a normal DAR (around 30-40% because thats all you can get with normal social spending), i dont knwo anyone who got it up very high and could get away with a very high buildcap. ANYONE?
Mostly due to the fact, i dont increase social spending taht much, because i can survive elections with a 30% DAR and i dont see any advances (what you do get in research) with high spending in social (putting money into a bottemless pit perhaps?)

2. The AI can get away with it, at least i guess. The AI is never kicked out the WM what i have seen. As the AI doesnt cheat and follows the same rules as we do, there maybe is something what you can do besides lower your buildcap. BUT! I never played it long enough till now with a lower buildcap to actually see them kicked out. Maybe that is the limiting factor Someone else?
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tkobo
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Post by tkobo »

1) i have had a 60 + dar and the largest build cap in the scenario more than a few times.
I have also gotten dar to go to and stay at 100 , again with the largest build cap in game.

Now i used to get kicked out of the WM every single game.It was a certainty for me :lol:

But lately, my problem is getting OUT of the WM :lol:
In the last 2 games ive had a dar over 60 (constantly)and the largest build cap in the scenerio and stayed in the world market too long.Get get out of it if your still in it when the world map rolls around.

Now what am i doing different ? Well for one thing i throw money everywhere. I can run an economy to ridiculus levels and can therefore fund my social services thru the roof (max).
On top of this, i have really gotten the hang of the diplomacy system.
I can almost always get the allies i want and even get them to declare war on the enemies (most of them,if they declare on me ) i want them to.

I can also almost always get the chosen enemy of the time to declare war on me.

So the question of "can you have a high dar and high buildcap at the same time,is answered by yes".
But like most things in this game, its something you have to learn a few things too do (and how) before you can

2) I dont think ive ever seen an AI get kicked out of the WM.At this stage of the game, i dont think they are aggressive enough to get kicked out.

I also think thats its the "perception of build cap" not the actual build cap that works agaisnt a region.I dont know if the AI can see the real build cap like the players can.

I also think that the AI regions do things we the palyers dont yet,as a way of keeping the WM's graces.
For instance, i never use those minister priorities to improve WM standing.
For all i know, they are very helpful.
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haenkie
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Post by haenkie »

tkobo if you get the hang of it please tell me some insides, like how you can get people to declare war on each other. And every single treaty? I have only two options here and mostly combined. 1: do it early int he agme, 2: throw small bits of money at them, repeatly. Those are my two strats in this sense



but you missed the point of my thread, are there other things then buildcap which define your relatiosn with your neighbours and your WM ratings (and they can surely see buildcap, whenever i lower it my standings improve!), and i dont mean treaties, because my second
problem is, how small the treaty is prevents you from going to war? (like now i have free tarde as only treaty, but i also lowered buildcap, normally war would be very fast, but now i dont know which is whcih).


And i have reported a few weeks ago (yes i was the first! :-)) the bug which when you move on to the world map from a scenario you still are a member of the WM.
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Post by BigStone »

Well there is a little paradox in this...
If you are attacked and fight back you'll conquer soon or later enemy bases = your buildcap increases and the agressors one will drop .... right... ?

So the consequence of this = your WM rating drops and the agressors one will increase... :-?

(well ... luckily most of the bases are damaged... )

I think this is a bit strange...

Suggestion: the rating should be determine by the amount of weapons per head of the population... ?+

Cheers
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Post by tkobo »

A Little decaff this morning for you i think.
This is going to be long.
tkobo if you get the hang of it please tell me some insides, like how you can get people to declare war on each other. And every single treaty? I have only two options here and mostly combined. 1: do it early int he game, 2: throw small bits of money at them, repeatly. Those are my two strats in this sense
Sounds about right,but you can do it at any stage of the game.Lots and lots of small diplomatic deals.Get his belli bar down to like 20 or lower and his government to be "pleased with you" and than ask for an alliance.
Make the offer very favorable to him cash wise and you have it.Now the other treaties can be asked for all at once with no "sweetner" added (on your part) and you will get them all.



Getting an ally to declare war on someone is not that hard.
First get the target to declare war on you.I usaully look at the map and pick who im going to have on my side and who im going to target, and in what order before i start the clock running.
Than i pick my allies and start to work on the enemy.I stage large amounts of troops on his border and build bases right there also.I make no treaties with him and send threatening diplomatic "offers" that are just insane.Like "give me all the money in your treasury and ill give you nothing".
Sometimes it takes a year or 3, but they get around to attacking sooner or later.

Once they have declared war on me, i move artillary and some tanks(to protect the art) into an allies region who also has a border with the enemy (of the moment) and start to exchange artillary fire with the enemy region from inside the border of my ally.
Again , this may take some time,but i dont think its ever failed to draw my ally into a shooting war with the chosen foe.


I already answered the one about "are there other things then buildcap which define your relations with your WM ratings"

Social services do so. Specifically culture , environment and medical are said to ,and indeed seem to, have a messureable effect on WM rating.

Hench, rasie your social services (DAR) and your world market rating can raise.

Max it out, especially in the mentioned ones and you can see a 80-90 WM rating continually.

I still dont think they see the actual buildcap, but only the devs can say for sure on this.Personally i think they base their view towards a region on a combination of suspected build cap and force size.So if they can see a large amount of your forces, say like because your forces are camped on your mutual border,they will have an increase in thier belli towards you.

I do know that ive been able to have the largest buildcap and maintain my world market rating and keep a low belli bar with my allies.

As for "are there other things then buildcap which define your relations with your neighbours "-not sure. If you dont want to use or mention diplomacy im not sure what else you expect to be able to use ?
I would "guess" that social services affect them also, but it would be a "guess".

And again, i dont believe its simply based on build cap.I think size of visable forces and proximity to thier region is also a factor.

"because my second
problem is, how small the treaty is prevents you from going to war? (like now i have free tarde as only treaty, but i also lowered buildcap, normally war would be very fast, but now i dont know which is whcih).
I dont understand what your trying to say here.
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haenkie
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Post by haenkie »

First my second problem, i wanted to say this: In my view it doesnt matter how small the treaty is (like free trade, not a heavy one like formal alliance), but the fact that it is in place, prevents you from getting war declared upon you. that is my theory.
My problem is, taht apart from getting a treaty with them i also lowere dmy buildcap a lot as not to be the biggest (it is bigger then them), them is East germany which always declares on West Germany (which is me) very very early int he germany scenario. So i wondered if my theory is right or it is the buildcap...



I dont think forces are the key here. because for your finances it does NOT matter how much forces you have on or off the map ( or perhaps even got) the advised pay stays the same by me, with 100 or 1000 units.

I do think the WM can see your buildcap! If you can see (as in the human player) everyone can see it! We dont get favors in this game. And it cannot be soemthing else, becuas ewhen i lower it, the WM ratings always increase! It doesnt guess this way.


I do not have the finances to pay for that high social spending. I know your trick and you are able to up it bits at a time with increased research spending (thanks for that using it!). And i dont go over the time limit as much as you do.
Can you say how much higher your buildcap was compared to other son the map?

My treaties are often impaired in the end, because the pop in that country ends up hating me. So even the repeated small money send (auch for my RSI) doesnt have an effect. And there must be (in my view) a better way then this.

Do otehrs have an idea on this, is buildcap the most defining factor, or is it not and are you able to do what tkobo does...
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Post by tkobo »

First my second problem, i wanted to say this: In my view it doesnt matter how small the treaty is (like free trade, not a heavy one like formal alliance), but the fact that it is in place, prevents you from getting war declared upon you. that is my theory.


I dont think thats true.Im positive ive had regions declare war on me with treaties in existance.
And i can remember a few threads here on the forum about AI regions declaring war on players even though the two had non-agression treaties.Which the players at the time thought would protect them from attack from that region, which it did not.

I do believe however that treaties lessen the chance an AI will declare war on a region it has treaties with.But i dont believe as a general rule, it will stop the AI region from declaring war.


I dont think forces are the key here. because for your finances it does NOT matter how much forces you have on or off the map ( or perhaps even got) the advised pay stays the same by me, with 100 or 1000 units.


I dont follow you at all here. Forces in reserve cost less than forces that are active.
1000 units cost more than 100 units.
I dont see how you could say otherwise.

By "advised pay", do you mean maintance ? salary ? both ?
These all change as the amount of units change.More units equals more cost.Reduce the amount of units and you reduce the cost.



If you can see (as in the human player) everyone can see it! We dont get favors in this game
Thats an assumption.
We as players can build, the AI cannot.So simply because we can do something does not mean the AI can.
because the pop in that country ends up hating me.
My exp is that you can get any treaty you want with almost any region you want regardless of that regions civilain rep towards you. It just takes proportionately more little offers if the civilian rep is bad.
Can you say how much higher your buildcap was compared to other son the map?
Not off hand, ill take some notes next game.

is buildcap the most defining factor
It just might be the most defining factor,but i dont believe its the only factor.


Also when all is said and done remember that alot of the animosity is coded into a given scenario. So things can be more difficult to achieve simply based on the scenario.
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haenkie
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Post by haenkie »

ok, nice to get some replies here.

But i disagree on one fact. The advised salaries and the advised pay (with this i mean training etc, dont have the game-name in my head), does not differ with the amount of active units i have.

It is the same with a 300 and when i reserve 250 of those it does not change.
I have not watched the figures closely but in my experience it doesnt change. Maybe it should and i have a bug, maybe i am wrong.


Oh and another, the AI can build but sees no need for it right? I remember one of the dev's stating that the scenarios are designed to short for the AI to see a need to build (or is coded in its tasks). But when you change sides (loading your singlepalyer in multipalyer and take an other side) you can build! The option for the AI is there, but it doesnt use it! I am very sure the AI has the possibility but doesnt use it.
It also cannot be that we can see buildcaps and all other info from our enemy's and they cannot. But that was all not the point of this thread.

But you did clarify things for me thanks :-)
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Post by Sebastiaan »

tkobo wrote:I already answered the one about "are there other things then buildcap which define your relations with your WM ratings"

Social services do so. Specifically culture , environment and medical are said to ,and indeed seem to, have a messureable effect on WM rating.

Hench, rasie your social services (DAR) and your world market rating can raise.

Max it out, especially in the mentioned ones and you can see a 80-90 WM rating continually.
What do you mean by maxing it out, do you mean recommended setting or all the way to right (so your rating will eventualy become above 100%)

when going above 100%, won't you get dimminiching returns?
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Post by tkobo »

Yes. put the slider all the way to the right and lock it.

I would quess there are diminishing returns ,but i cant really see them,so i dont know for sure.
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Post by Legend »

I am in the process of reviewing all relations in the game... and what effects there should be.

If you want to suggest anything please feel free... but keep it short.
Here are some examples:
If region A attacks region B, and B is allied to region C, region C should get a slight increase in their Causus Belli rating even if region A has high Belli against region B.

What should happen when a capital is taken? (DAR-domestic approval rating drops-and how much?)

Should anything happen when a military base is taken? (MAR-military approval rating drops-and how much?)


I am looking at every aspect of the game to make sure effects are in place and at balanced levels. Now's the time to have your say.

Here are the primary areas I am looking at:
- DAR (Domestic Approval Rating)
- MAR (Military Approval Rating)
- WMAR (World Market Approval Rating)
- WMSubsidy (World Market Subsidy Rating)
- Causus Belli (Justification to go to war with another region)
- Civrelate (Civilian Approval towards another region)
- Diprelate (Diplomatic relations with another region)
- Treaty Integrity
- Loyalty
- Research Efficiency
- Unit Efficiency

While there are already many things that affect the above mentioned items if you feel there should be less or more importance on an event and their effects, please comment.

Keep suggestions short and in point form.
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haenkie
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Post by haenkie »

Everything aside, your WMAR and even Diprelate are much to depended on your buildcap.
Only when i lower my buildcap below one of the AI's can i stop the WM from hating me. High cultural and enviromental maybe slow the process down.

My causus belli is also mostlu depended on my buildcap (when i commit no hostile actions of course!).


Lessen that influence!

Have it take into accoutn, if i want diplo relations, if I!! commit hostile actions (not others attacking me).
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Post by tkobo »

^^^^^^ yes, what he said.

Either lower the build cap effect,or raise the effect of the counters.
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