Missiles

[dust off]

not my area of speciality; but I would think that a sub can't be loaded with a ICBM because they are too big. The missiles have to be forced clear of the water before the rockets are ignited. I know a submariner so I could check facts??

[Balthagor]

Well, you're sort of right... Subs aren't loaded with ICBMs, they use a variation of the ICBM refered to as SLBMs. But really, they are the same type of thing, both going very high altitude and velocity over a long range to deliver a large BOOM at the end

If you'd like to know how this work, check out this example with the UK Vanguard SSBN that carries Trident SLBMs

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/vanguard/

And for Jeurgen, found a site you might like with some missiles;

http://www.aerospace.ru/English/partner ... ssiles.htm

Using this site, I'll try and determine some of the key "tech items" to add to the tech tree that players will need to move from one generation of missiles to another.

Now, back to Jeurgen's comments;

It seems that the only thing we seem to have left you concerned with is that a SSN will be able to fire SLBMs. I think this is solved by the fact that SLBMs will have a much higher point value and therefore likley won't fit on a SS/SSN class sub. I don't think the missile capacity will have problems keeping units from moving up, just not from moving down. Basicaly, we have a Max, just not a Min. I agree that SSBNs should be the only ones able to fire SLBMs and I'll be trying to set the points so it works this way. I'll keep you informed how it goes.

On 2003-10-17 08:40, Juergen wrote:
How does the game actually simulate nuclear explosions?

Good Question! Having just finished a lot of the missile discussions, these are the questions we’re working on now. I know that David has some design notes and George has a good idea of how they’re going to work, but you’ll have to wait a bit longer for us to go over it all and be sure we’re happy with it.

On 2003-10-17 08:40, Juergen wrote:
On what does it depend how much territory is affected and how much damage is applied to it?

Currently damage is applied evenly over the specified area of effect.

On 2003-10-17 08:40, Juergen wrote:
Does the explosion come from the missile or from the warhead(s) inside the missile,game-technically speaking of course?

I’m not sure how to answer this. We assume they are one and the same. Each missile unit has all the attributes of the missile and the warhead.

Generally, it sounds like we are on the right track to making this fairly realistic in their use and deployment. Here’s hoping we manage to stay on track!

[Juergen]

Well its quite good to hear that the nightmares about SLBM firing SSNs are over

But as far as the "warheads" are concerned Im almost sure to have heard something about "manufacturing warheads" so I automatically assumed that there must be various sizes for them,and that the bigger ones of them just dont fit into every missile.

I think its quite an important question if the explosion comes from the warhead or from the missile.
In case it comes from the warhead it is easily possible to select payloads for missiles opening a lot of possibilities.

But should the effects really be glued to the missiles then the only way of simulating different payloads would be to include "variants" for the missiles.

For example:
The SS-18 Satan has two major mods.
One with a huge 25MT warhead to ensure that the enemy silo,or any "hard" target,will be destroyed.
Another with 10 MIRVs for better area coverage for the "softer" targets.

And in order to reflect this in the game there would have to be the:
SS-18 Satan mod1
and the
SS-18 Satan mod2

Both with different values for the affected area and the damage.

[Balthagor]

The idea of having the warheads separately from the missiles was part of our early design but got dropped. We are now doing as you’re suggesting and putting different yield versions of certain missiles and the player decides when the start construction what yield they are building to.

So yes, there will be two versions of the SS-18 in the game. In fact, while I was writing this, I opened the equipment file and added the names for later so they’re already in the list. How’s that for service?

[Juergen]

Quite good,as always

[Juergen]

I just thought I could give you the link to a little programm called "Nukefix" that can give you some helpfull information about the effect of nuclear weapons including the "multiple blast effect" which will be quite interesting if you want to simulate MIRV effects.
The programm lets you define the yield of the warhead(s) and the number of MIRVs and a few other parameters and will show you the affected area.
So I guess it will be usefull for estimating how much area MIRVed missiles do affect.

Just try it out its for free

http://www.nukefix.org/

[Juergen]

From the current silence on the forum one might assume that you are already happily tossing missiles at each other ,if that is the case then please let us know.

[Balthagor]

Actually, missiles take off as of this morning but there seems to be some problem with targetting... like, they don't. We're working on it more this evening so hold tight, I'll bet you'll hear the first impact if it's a nuke

[Juergen]

Hmmm...as far as I have heard there was no impact.
Or is this just me ?

[Balthagor]

Well, the first missile impacted sometime last night and a second test was done this morning @ 10:22 EST.

Possible reasons why you didn’t hear it;

- The missile fired was a conventional missile under 500kg yield
- Missile sounds are missing so all missiles are silent currently (fixing that one today)
- Missile impact does not cause damage yet (all missiles are duds )
- Missile was fired from France (Marseille player) .. didn't get much CNN coverage

...but, they did fly! We'll be starting some heavy testing soon so we should be able to have discussions on damage yeild and area of effect before long

[Juergen]

Well what can I say expect:


Although there is another thing I would like to talk about:
What about missile detection and the handling of their different speeds?
Actually Im also puzzled about how aircrafts will be handled in these terms.
Just like missiles they also are very fast and thus I wonder if you can actually see them moving on the map and how the game calcultes who attacks first,arrives and is attacked.

I know that there is already a thread about missile defense but I think that these things are basic enough to be discussed here.

------
Sorry that I didnt come up with are more original message for the 100th reply but I just returned from a very demanding excursion
so Im still a little busy sobering

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Juergen on 2003-11-16 13:23 ]</font>

[Balthagor]

Well, some of your questions there get into how things are calculated in the code and George would need to answer that, but since he’s barely had time to look at the forum in the last six weeks, don’t hold your breath. What I can say is that the actual speed of all missiles and planes is in the equipment file so they are moving at real speeds but the areas they cross are large enough that you do see them out on the map a bit before they go back for gas. Also, I have seen for myself that an F-22 is a lot faster than an F-14. We use average speeds so any super cruising jets move notably faster. Most missiles are not that fast. Usually only ICBMs are above mach 4 and ICBMs aren’t seen on map. Missile detection is done the same as anything else. They have a stealth strength that is compared to the unit’s spotting strength. That’s actually something I have to fix today, our first test game showed that missile stealth was set to high for all missiles. I was flying right over George’s anti air and they didn’t even blink.

Once we have the stealth balanced, I’ll have to re-examine their attack values since we found they where set too high as well. One MGM-53 Lance missile was taking out 18 SS-80 artillery pieces. I figure after balancing it will be more like 4-6. This would mean that 5 missiles would take out one battalion of artillery on average.

[Juergen]

On 2003-11-17 09:30, Balthagor wrote:
Once we have the stealth balanced, I’ll have to re-examine their attack values since we found they where set too high as well. One MGM-53 Lance missile was taking out 18 SS-80 artillery pieces. I figure after balancing it will be more like 4-6. This would mean that 5 missiles would take out one battalion of artillery on average.

Was the Lance missiles supposed to be nuclear or conventional?

Were the SS-80 on one hex or were they divided?

How big was the hex?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Juergen on 2003-11-17 11:39 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Juergen on 2003-11-17 11:42 ]</font>

[Balthagor]

Conventional, In the same hex (battalion pieces can't be seperate hexes) and 13km hexes.

[Juergen]

I see.
Well the Lance must have been very lucky indeed to blow up 18 pieces of equipment.
Even if they would be very close together the Astros is still has a light armour which would protect it.
4-6 killed Astros vehicles sounds about right.

Any news on "nuclear explosion modelling" yet?


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Juergen on 2003-11-25 06:47 ]</font>