Military units

Hellfish6 · Post by **Hellfish6** » Jun 19 2002

Hi

What is the relative size/strength of each individual ground unit? Battalion strength? Brigade strength?

Will command and control be implemented?

Can we assign commanders with bonuses to units? (Like Colonel X has a +10 tank combat rating, but a -2 defense rating). I think commanders can be one of the most important aspects of success on the battlefield.

Post by **Balthagor** » Jun 19 2002

We use roughly the Battalion strength. For example a Leopard "Unit" would have a strength of 58 representing 58 peices in te battalion though not all peices will be lLeopard tanks. If you take the example of an AH-64D Longbow "unit" it has a strenght of 24 but some of helicopters would actually be Kiawa Warriors for spotting. We rate the units based on their "combined arms" capability according to their battalion makeup.

Orders will be able to be given to Battalions, Regiments or Divisions and perhaps Corps if called for in the larger maps. You will also be able to assign the Regiment and Division to which a unit belongs.

As for leaders, that is currently in our design and we have begun basic implimentation of leaders. We will update when the is more to tell.

Empier4552 · Post by **Empier4552** » Jun 19 2002

Wait, so Balth how do you determine which craft are actually 'destroyed'? Im assuming units arent just automatically wiped out completely and survivors etc will be allowed- However how does the game decide which units die and which dont?

Additionally can one put a priority marker or emphasis of destruction of a particular unit in a battalion? Ex- you got em apaches an da few RAH-66s...can you tell your units "HIt those RAH's first then get the apaches."?

Post by **Balthagor** » Jun 20 2002

We don't specifically track which pieces have been shot down and which haven't. To increase playability, we average out the combat values to a single unit and multiply by the strength of the battalion. If you have a Longbow unit with strength 24 and a "Hard attack" value of 44, total attack value against a hard target would be 1056. Now maybe 2 of the 24 are Kiawa Warriors, but this is averaged out. If you get hit for 4 points, your strength falls to 20 and your total "hard attack" value becomes 880. This is not 100% accurate but provides for the best possible gameplay. If we try and break it down too far, Division level combat becomes impossible to coordinate.

Hellfish6 · Post by **Hellfish6** » Jun 20 2002

I know you guys have been doing a lot of work making those 3D models for the games, but could we have the option of simply having 2D NATO unit markers for military units? You know, the boxes with an X for infantry, with an oval for armor, etc.?

Post by **Balthagor** » Jun 24 2002

Thanks, but I think we're going to pass on this suggestion. We have made sure that unit images are unique to a type of unit. You will never see an image that is used for an anti-tank and an artillery unit. I saw the Nato symbols you mention used in other games but found them difficult to differentiate. Now, in theory, you could simply replace the PNG files we use for the images with your own PNGs of NATO symbols but we are not likely to do this before release.

Alex, the Russian · Post by **Alex, the Russian** » Aug 15 2002

Hi. I hope the game will contain lots of Russian units. I list some names of those units. // BMD-3, BMP-3, BTR-90, Cherniy Orel (Black Eagle) MBT, Kirov class nuclear cruiser, Slava class cruiser, Mig MFI (1.42/1.44) 5th generation stealth multirole fighter jet, SU-47 Berkut 5th generation fighter jet, SU-27,30,33,34,35,37 fighter jets, Shilka AA gun system, Ka-50 and Ka-52 attack helicopters, S-300 and S-400 SAM systems, Tu-95 and Tu-160 strategic bombers, Zubr aircushing amphibious assault carft, Uragan and Smerch rocket artillery systems, Ka-60 helicopter, Yak-141 jumping jet fighter, AN-225 the biggest cargo plane in the world, IL-76 Paratroop assault air-carrier,TU-330 medium cargo plane, newest stealth multirole corvette "Stereguchshiy" project 20380, new attack sub "Akula II" class 4th generation, new missle sub "Borey" class 4th generation. \ I hope you will do some research and include these units into the game. It would be AWESOME!!!
To help you do some research on these units, i know 2 great websites. / http://www.army.lv and / legion.wplus.net They are written in Russian so you should press "English" button to translate it.
Thank you, Bye.

Post by **George Geczy** » Aug 16 2002

Chris will be able to go into more detail, but we certainly have a wide range of Russian equipment already on the list. Like the US, the Russians also provide equipment and equipment designs to a significant number of other regions in the world, so the use of Russian items will be relatively widespread.

As well, in the regional scenarios, each region will generally be restricted to the equipment pool they can build - ie US, Europe, Russian, etc. So if you start in Russia, you will not be able to build M1A2 tanks, or Leopards, etc. That means that the equipment list for each region needs to be complete, or else you'd be missing the ability to build certain types of units.

Thanks for the links for more information - we've been scouring for info on specs, costs, etc, so every bit helps. Some items, ie the Black Eagle tank, can be very difficult to research, obviously.

-- George.
<Lead Programmer, BattleGoat Studios>

Post by **Balthagor** » Aug 16 2002

I believe that good information deserves good information. Thanks for all the unit names you gave, although we had about two thirds of them in the file already, the others I have done research for but had a few issues;

S-300 and S-400 SAM systems; Need more info on these. Couldnâ€™t find them. Are these missiles or vehicles?

Zubr aircushing amphibious assault craft; Iâ€™ve taken notes on this one but we havenâ€™t started the section on Amphibious vehicles yet and need to do some work on this.

Newest stealth multirole corvette "Stereguchshiy" project 2038. Could not find any data on this one.

For everything else, Iâ€™ve posted an excerpt from our equipment file of some of the Russian equipment that will be available to players. (http://www.supremeruler2010.com/public/rus.zip) As you will see, there is data missing. Feel free to fill in anything you come across and submit it back to me. Any help on this will assist us in completing the project

As far as the web links you gave, the first one either didn't offer a "translate to english" or the words themselves where in Russian. I couldn't find any data that I could read.

Hellfish6 · Post by **Hellfish6** » Aug 16 2002

Chris,

I can help with military equipment, but I need to know a bit more about what the capabilities of the game are. I mean, would it be useful to give you information about KA-28/KA-30 assault/transport helicopters if you won't be able to specifically use them to transport infanty? Are transport helicopters just a generic item in the game that are not specially modelled? And if so, what about Mi-24s, which are gunships AND transports? Same with the new versions of the UH-60 Blackhawk and Mi-17.

What about Tanker aircraft like the KC-10 and IL-76M? Will air-to-air refueling be allowed?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hellfish6 on 2002-08-16 14:59 ]</font>

Hellfish6 · Post by **Hellfish6** » Aug 16 2002

Also, for the Russian spreadsheet you posted, the BMD-3 AT should have a "Y" in the Airdrop column because it is, as noted, airdroppable. I don't know if you know, but there is an infantry transport variant of the BMD-3 as well, and also a BMD-2 (like a smaller version of the BMP-2) and a BMD-1 (like a smaller version of the BMP-1). Basically, any Russian equipment that has BMD or ASU as its designation is air droppable. The BTR-D is a turretless version of the BMD used soley as an infantry/logistical transport, too.

Post by **Balthagor** » Aug 16 2002

For all those who do downlaod the Russian spreadsheet, do be aqare that it is only an excerpt and not all the Russian equipment. As far as the BMD-3 ICV version, we found that the BTRs where far more common for ingantry units; that most BMD-3s in service where anti-tank. For simplicity, our first thought would be to use the BTRs for infantry and the BMDs for AT. Keeps it cleaner. But the forum is where we double check our decisions. Should we have an entry for a BMD-3 ICV? Also, for the Airdropable issue, I will check each unit to make sure it is selected. Some of the data is missing not because we can't find it, but because we haven't had time to go looking yet! Instead of giving us each new piece one at a time, Feel free to e-mail me a copy of the spreadsheet when you've made your ntes in it. For Peoples General, once the game had been out for a while, people started re-writing the equipment file to "correct" the stats that SSI had used. We'd like to get it as close as possible before release. We do also have a few people outside the team working on the spreadsheet but they have their own lives and we know that we will need to fill in the majority of the spreadsheet. (We are VERY thankful for the work they have already provided us!)

Hellfish6 · Post by **Hellfish6** » Aug 16 2002

BTRs are APCs used for motorized rifle units (mech infantry). BMDs are ICVs for mechanized air assault forces (paratroopers that bring ICVs with them). They do not serve in the same units.

BTR-Ds http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/btr-d.htm are not the wheeled kind (like BTR-60, BTR-70, BTR-80 and BTR-90) http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/btr-60.htm. They are just BMDs with no turrets. They are not widespread, as I understand it, and may not need to be included in the game.

BMPs are used mostly in tank divisions as ICVs. However, 1 of the 3 regiments in a motor rifle division will have BMPs.

It's kind of complicated, I know, but I hate to have to dissect Soviet/Russian military units.

Basically: The BMD-3 is an ICV (infantry combat vehicle) not simply an AT platform. It can and does carry infantry.

BMD-3 Airborne Infantry Fighting Vehicle

The BMD-3 is the successor to the BMD-1 and BMD-2 AIFVs. The BMD-3 features a brand new chassis fitted with the complete turret of the BMP-2 infantry fighting vehicle. The BMD-3 retains the boat-shaped hull with the two-man turret located in the forward third of the chassis. The BMD-3 has much better amphibious capability than its predecessors. There is more room inside the vehicle, a significant increase in firepower, with the two-man turret offering better overall command and control of the vehicle and its weaponry. The BMD-3 can be airdropped from transport aircraft with the complete crew of seven men remaining inside the vehicle. In the past, the crew was dropped separately, and it often took a considerable time for them to locate the vehicle. By dropping the BMD-3 with its crew ready in the vehicle, the element of surprise associated with airborne operations is enhanced. The BMD-3 is of all-welded construction which provides the crew with protection from small arms fire and shell splinters. The crew consists of commander, gunner, driver, and four infantrymen, with the commander normally dismounting with the squad. A further three infantrymen can be carried in an emergency in the rear. The two-man power operated turret is armed with a 30-mm 2A42 dual feed cannon which is fitted with a distinctive muzzle brake and is stabilized in both elevation and traverse. Maximum effective range when firing AP-T (armor piercing-tracer) ammunition is 2000-m, and when firing HE-I (High Explosive-Incendiary) ammunition is 4000-m against an area target. A 7.62-mm PKT machine-gun is mounted coaxially to the right. Mounted on the roof is an ATGM launcher for either the AT-4 SPIGOT or AT-5 SPANDREL. Mounted on either side of the turret is a bank of three 81-mm electrically operated smoke dischargers firing forwards. Mounted at the front of the BMD-3 on the left side is an AG-17 30-mm automatic grenade launcher while on the right bow is a 5.45-mm RPKS machine-gun. Each of the bow weapons is operated by one of the infantrymen seated in the front of the BMD-3. The power pack is located at the rear of the hull and consists of a 2V-06 water-cooled diesel developing 450-bhp which gives a very high power-to-weight ratio of 34 hp/ton. The hydroneumatic suspension of the BMD-3 is adjustable to give a ground clearance of between 130-mm and 530-mm, although for normal road travel it is 450-mm. The BMD-3 is fully amphibious being propelled by two water jets mounted on either side at the rear of the vehicle.

from http://hometown.aol.com/threatmstr/afvs.htm

There is the 9P149 Shturm-S http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/9p149.htm AT vehicle, which has AT-6 missiles mounted on the roof. And also the 9P157-2 Khrizantema http://www.wonderland.org.nz/hrizantema.htm which carries the new AT-15 AT missiles.

Conclusion: I highly recommend the BMD-3 be used as an infantry vehicle, while the 9P149 and 9P157-2 are both very well suited to be AT vehicles.

Alex, the Russian · Post by **Alex, the Russian** » Aug 18 2002

Here are some of links that can help you

S-400 http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-400.htm

Juergen · Post by **Juergen** » Aug 22 2002

On 2002-08-16 17:44, Balthagor wrote:
For all those who do downlaod the Russian spreadsheet, do be aqare that it is only an excerpt and not all the Russian equipment.

Does the same apply to the naval spreadsheet?

In case this one is meant to be complete I have detected that there are very few SSBNs.Quite important submarines like the british "Resolution" and the french "Triomphant" are missing.And there will some scenarios(like France vs UK) where these subs will be missed.