Intercept planes Vs. Attack Planes

[Creepshow]

I am concerned about the abilities of some attack planes'(namely the F-16s) ability to go up against Intecept planes. While the F-16 is labled as an Attack plane, it is quite formidable in air-to-air role. In fact, I have recently learned that its abilities actually rival (If not outperform) that of the F-15 ! See the F-16

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/index.html

Just trying to insure the lethality of all planes. Interceptors do not positively "Rule the Skies" !

[Geta]

The F15 has a higher operational ceiling and has a higher top speed. Both are similarly armed. I've read AARs from pilots of both, that swear their bird is the best dogfighter in the air, but I would be surprised to read anything else about the plane a guy flew in combat. IMHO, they are certainly close, and probably equal inside gun range, depending on the man or woman in the seat. However, that ceiling and top end edge would expand the ACM envelop of the F15 to be over that of the F16, so it should get a slight edge. Again, just my opinion.

[Balthagor]

No reason for concern Creepshow, I assume your comment is based on the fact that on the website in the Military Equipment Reference the F-16 is only listed in the Attack planes section. I have not had the time to update the listings in a long time. Once the player reaches tech level 79, they get access to the F-16A Interceptor. At 84, they get the F-16C Fighter/bomber. The nice thing is that these are tagged as refits for each other so if you built 8 squadrons of F-16As as soon as you could, once you reach tech level 84, you could send 4 of them back to a base on a “refit” command and after a bit of time they would re-launch as F-16Cs.

As far as Geta’s comments on the F-15, the numbers for both are very close but there are different versions of each according to the tech level. Usually the one that was “unlocked” most recently will be slightly better.

Here’s a question... how long should it take if you send an F-16A squadron to a base to be refit as F-16Cs? Remember that there would be some electronics changes done as well. And what about upgrade times? You built F-15Cs when they became available at tech level 86 but now your at 105 and have unlocked the new F-15K. When you send the F-15Cs back to base how long should it take to do the upgrade?

Most of these formulas would probably work best as x days / plane. (Squadrons are usually 24).

(BTW, we take “Refits” and “Upgrades” as two different things. You might could unlock the F-16 ADF at tech level 88 but your F-16Cs can only be refitted as F-16As and only F-16As can be upgraded to F-16 ADFs... and this is different still than “rearm” where you simply change which missile units are loaded on the plane.)

Thanks for all the good feedback though...

[Geta]

On 2003-04-26 11:25, Balthagor wrote:
Here’s a question... how long should it take if you send an F-16A squadron to a base to be refit as F-16Cs? Remember that there would be some electronics changes done as well. And what about upgrade times? You built F-15Cs when they became available at tech level 86 but now your at 105 and have unlocked the new F-15K. When you send the F-15Cs back to base how long should it take to do the upgrade?

Most of these formulas would probably work best as x days / plane. (Squadrons are usually 24).

(BTW, we take “Refits” and “Upgrades” as two different things. You might could unlock the F-16 ADF at tech level 88 but your F-16Cs can only be refitted as F-16As and only F-16As can be upgraded to F-16 ADFs... and this is different still than “rearm” where you simply change which missile units are loaded on the plane.)

Thanks for all the good feedback though...

In Real Life (tm) a "refit" should take less time than an "upgrade" if I understand your use of the words correctly.

As for "x days / plane" as a formula, if "x" is less than the number of days it takes to build the entire plane, then this could expressed as:

Refit Time = x * .2 (or some other number) per plane
Upgrade Time = x * .25 (or some other number) per plane

where "x" is the number of days required to build a plane initially.

Upgrade Time should be slightly longer (IMHO) because not only is old equipment being removed and new equipment being installed during an "upgrade", some amount of "training time" on the new upgrades should be considered for both ground crews and pilots.

[Balthagor]

everything your suggesting sounds good but I'd also like to hear an opinion on what people think the total time players would expect to be without their f-16 squadron when they send it back to base to be converted from air attack to land attack roles...

10 hours?
2 days?
7 days?

But I do agree that upgrades will take longer than refits. And changing missile payload will take less time than a refit.

[Geta]

Now I am confused as to what you mean by "refit" as opposed to "changing missile loadouts"?

Take an F-16 for example. It can have an air superiority loadout of AIM-9 and AIM 120 AA missiles, and then RTB and have the AIM 120s removed and CBU-99 (cluster bombs) mounted or AGM-66 (maverick missiles) and now that F-16 has a ground support or ground attack loadout. All performed by way of a ~1 hour per plane "missile loadout" change.

So, what exactly do you consider the difference between "refit" and "loadout" changes?

[3iff]

Of course, you also have to take account of the pilots getting tired - or do you assume superhuman pilots/soldiers who never get fatigued.

When a squadron is armed/rearmed, I assume you arm all aircraft the same. It's not possible (or desirable??) to arm some aircraft for air combat and others for ground attack.

I've no idea what real air squadrons do, but I can see times when that might be useful. Having said that, I think that other squadrons are normally used to provide air support with inflight refuelling to extend their range/time in the air.

[Geta]

One other consideration that I think I forgot to mention, that should be factored into whatever formula that is used, is the fact that when a squadron undergoes refit or upgrade or rearming (whatever) there is a ground crew (and plane captain) per plane. This means the process goes on in parallel. Depending on hanger facilities, a number of planes of a squadron would be worked on at once. So, the SOME_FACTOR per PLANE approach is not really accurate.

On the issue of pilots being tired, most modern day air forces, have a TOE that contains more pilots than planes. Thus, when a plane comes in, it is possible for a different (and rested) pilot to take the plane back out than the original (and fatigued) pilot who may have brought it in. Unless SR2010 plans to model pilot experience, then I don't know why pilot fatigue should be considered.

[Geta]

And yet another related issue to refit and upgrade and rearming that I forgot to mention (I must be having more senile moments) is that when a squadron departs an airfield, then conducts its mission and RTB to a different airfield, then there should be a penalty applied to any refit or upgrade or rearming times conducted for that squadron. The reason is, that a squadron is MUCH more than just the planes and pilots. In total it is also the ground crews, logistics crews, flight operation personnel and command personnel that were at the ORIGINAL airfield. The penalty would reflect some time being spent to get the ground-based portion of the squadron relocated to the new airfield. Hearts of Iron for example, reflects this in a loss of "organization" which occurs whenever an air unit is rebased.

[Balthagor]

Everything that you’re talking about has been taken into consideration but some shortcuts have been accepted. We don’t tie the support staff of a squadron to individual battalions. When an aircraft is “restationed” at another base it suffers no penalties. I suppose we could alter that with not too much work but I’d like to hear others asking for it before we go that way. As for the issue of all planes being reloaded/refuelled simultaneously, I agree that does make the x hours/plane idea seem less accurate. Therefore, the question would be more how long should it take to refit from a certain class to another. For example changing from the “fighter/bomber” role to the “fighter/Interceptor” role would probably be fairly quick but having a Sub refit from a “hunter/killer” role to a “mine layer” role would take longer. Suggestions of how long some of these things should take would be helpful

As far as refit vs. missile loadout, I’ll try and explain. If you have an F-18 you can “refit” it from a “fighter/interceptor” role (AMRAAMs, Sparrows and Sidewinders) to a “fighter/Bomber” role (cluster bombs, laser guided bombs and Mavericks). Either way it also has a missile capacity to exchange some of it’s supplies for “missile units” including JSOWs or Harpoons. If you refit it you change to role. If you change the missiles you’re exchanging missiles for other missiles or more supplies (less missiles).

The closest we come to “fatigue” is that units that are always in an active state will take a morale hit and will hurt your military approval. So if you keep sending the same squadron of aircraft out as fast as they can refuel then they will get tired and cranky...

[Geta]

Based on the description of refit vs missile loadout, it sure seems to me that they are roughly the same (or I'm just not understanding the difference). Basically, different weapon systems are being installed on the hardpoints of the F-18. Nothing is changing in the cockpit, or the radar, or the guns, or the engine. Just hardpoints being loaded differently. Thus, refit time == loadout time.

Even for subs. Changing a hunter/killer to a mine layer is loading different ordinance that would be launched out of torpedo tubes. And I don't think you are talking about refitting a hunter/killer sub to a boomer are you?

Could a heavy tank battelion be refitted to be a LAV battelion? And vice versa?

[Balthagor]

You're right that there isn't much difference with refit vs. loadout but they are important distinctions since missile units are stronger and farther reaching. I would tend think that refits or loadouts for aircraft would be about the same time and maybe 2 hours for the squadron airborne. But I'm less sure on how long it would take the sub to be refit.

No, Tanks can't be refit to LAVs. Refits cannot change the equipment. However, a leader could be transfered from a tank battalion to an LAV infantry battalion to make use of experience he gained.

[Geta]

On 2003-04-30 08:34, Balthagor wrote:
But I'm less sure on how long it would take the sub to be refit.

I'm thinking you could not be too far off if you considered 1 hr per weapon system load. So, if a sub had 12 torpedos, then a refit/loadout would take at least 12 hours (1/2 day).

[Balthagor]

I like that, thanks. I'll start with that and we'll see how people like it during the beta.

[Geta]

You are welcome! If I run across any specific Real Life (tm) comments about aircraft or whatever weapon servicing (ie. loadouts) I'll try to post them here too. I tend to read alot about military systems stuff just as a normal course of doing business.